A Warning About Alignments

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Russell
Thank you

To align my BMW (only toe-in can be adjusted) you are supposed to have a full tank and place appropiate weights in seats to simulate a loaded vehicle. Do you think any shop does this?


When I still had threaded coilovers at all four corners of the car, my shop actually had me sit in the driver's seat during both the corner/cross-weighting adjustments, AND the actual alignment (also with a full tank of fuel).

They used Longacre scales, and a Hunter with a printout, and were former SCCA/EMRA Formula Ford and Formula Continental racers.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I'm going to be the one to say this, and please don't consider it harsh but:

You were originally looking at getting a BMW. You didn't get one. Now you are lowering your Prius to improve "handling", what's next?

You didn't buy a BMW sir. You aren't going to be turning the Prius into one. If the intent is to eventually get rid of the Prius and buy a BMW, then just leave the Prius alone. It is not a BMW, it will never BE a BMW, accept that fact and move on.


I still plan to get something sporty at some point.

The suspension upgrades were low-cost, factory options that would make the car more drivable on a daily basis. I have no intention of trying to turn it into a BMW, that would a money losing battle.

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Critic need a delicate alignment because otherwise the Prius would throw all sorts of stability control problem. That's why the zero calibration thingy is important and a lot of shops do not do it.

Critic even try to convince me that my IS250 also need zero point calibration after an alignment, but when I asked on ClubLexus no one has ever heard about it.

In a nut shell, if you own a high center of gravity car like Prius, that has a very touchy stability control, do it in a dealer or watch every single step of the way on the guy who does the alignment, and do not leave the shop unless you've seen them do all the work.

No, the Prius is no different than any other Toyota with VSC.

The shop manual advises you to perform a zero-point of the yaw rate/acceleration sensor after an alignment, though obviously you can get by without doing it.

I will gladly come by and do it on your IS.

Originally Posted By: Russell
what is a zero point calibration?


Basically it resets the steering angle sensor so that it reads 0 when the tires are pointed straight ahead. Depending on what was adjusted during the alignment, this will change the zero-point position.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: The Critic

No, the Prius is no different than any other Toyota with VSC.

The shop manual advises you to perform a zero-point of the yaw rate/acceleration sensor after an alignment, though obviously you can get by without doing it.

I will gladly come by and do it on your IS.



Component wise there are no differences, but Prius is much more sensitive compare to any other cars i have seen. I have not gotten any funny traction control issue and no, you are not touching my zero point calibration.

Come to think of it, yaw should not be any different on a car that is not losing grip (slip, drift, etc) on tires before or after an alignment. If you are losing grip after an alignment on the same tires, I'm going to be very concerned. Am I understanding it wrong?

Were you adjusting the caster, spring rate, sway bar size, lowering, etc?

 

[Papa Bear]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Take it to the dealer.


Who takes it down the street to the Sears store.. (really!)


And across the street to Firestone ??!! .....

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Russell
Thank you

To align my BMW (only toe-in can be adjusted) you are supposed to have a full tank and place appropiate weights in seats to simulate a loaded vehicle. Do you think any shop does this?


Actually the owners manual for the BMW suggests to use the mother-in-law as the weight.

when I said that to my wife a few years ago, she did not like it.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
No, the Prius is no different than any other Toyota with VSC.

The shop manual advises you to perform a zero-point of the yaw rate/acceleration sensor after an alignment, though obviously you can get by without doing it.


I hate to belabor the point, but is the Toyota stability control system different from any other? I've owned a lot of vehicles with stability control, and none have talked about recalibrating the stability control system after an alignment. I don't even remember seeing it for my 2011 Camry.

 

[ComfyShorts]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: The Critic
No, the Prius is no different than any other Toyota with VSC.

The shop manual advises you to perform a zero-point of the yaw rate/acceleration sensor after an alignment, though obviously you can get by without doing it.


I hate to belabor the point, but is the Toyota stability control system different from any other? I've owned a lot of vehicles with stability control, and none have talked about recalibrating the stability control system after an alignment. I don't even remember seeing it for my 2011 Camry.


On newer Hunter alignment racks there is an option that comes up after the alignment is complete for vehicles where steering angle sensor and others stability related sensors to be re calibrated. Is it really important? Its not critical if vehicles alignment stays close to factory specs. But if large alignment adjustments are made its very important to re calibrate.
@Critic: Don't re calibrate on your own. When aligning, tech puts vehicle in exact steer ahead position based on HIS steering wheel centering BEFORE front toe adjustment. In other words if your steering wheel centering differs from the tech who did the alignment, your re calibration is inaccurate in relations to the actual alignment even if you centered steering wheel perfectly. I'm tired at the moment let me know if I need to clarify something.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: ComfyShorts
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: The Critic
No, the Prius is no different than any other Toyota with VSC.

The shop manual advises you to perform a zero-point of the yaw rate/acceleration sensor after an alignment, though obviously you can get by without doing it.


I hate to belabor the point, but is the Toyota stability control system different from any other? I've owned a lot of vehicles with stability control, and none have talked about recalibrating the stability control system after an alignment. I don't even remember seeing it for my 2011 Camry.


On newer Hunter alignment racks there is an option that comes up after the alignment is complete for vehicles where steering angle sensor and others stability related sensors to be re calibrated. Is it really important? Its not critical if vehicles alignment stays close to factory specs. But if large alignment adjustments are made its very important to re calibrate.
@Critic: Don't re calibrate on your own. When aligning, tech puts vehicle in exact steer ahead position based on HIS steering wheel centering BEFORE front toe adjustment. In other words if your steering wheel centering differs from the tech who did the alignment, your re calibration is inaccurate in relations to the actual alignment even if you centered steering wheel perfectly. I'm tired at the moment let me know if I need to clarify something.


You are correct. This is my expertise at GM. The steering angle sensor is critical for proper correlation with the lateral yaw sensor. Of course, minor offsets won't hurt much and as long as the tech centers the wheel correctly. Also - you need the factory scan tool in most cases to relearn the angle sensor. All you do is turn the wheel all the way in each direction and it learns the position. Lastly - if it is too far out, it will set a plausability code where the readings are out of range.

 

[ComfyShorts]

Unfortunately steering angle sensor re-learn by full lock left and full lock i've only seen on GM. The hunter aligner does it through the OBD2 interface.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: ComfyShorts
Unfortunately steering angle sensor re-learn by full lock left and full lock i've only seen on GM. The hunter aligner does it through the OBD2 interface.


YEs, it must be done thru the OBD2 port to access the computers and you have to do this for GM as well. You access the special functions, select steering angle relearn/calibrate and it instructs you to turn the wheel lock to lock. Other cars should be the same.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd


I hate to belabor the point, but is the Toyota stability control system different from any other? I've owned a lot of vehicles with stability control, and none have talked about recalibrating the stability control system after an alignment. I don't even remember seeing it for my 2011 Camry.


See these two print-outs that I uploaded from the Prius service manual:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8-5xrBaLKaBNUxyYzI2T09FeWc/edit (bottom of second-to-last page.)

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8-5xrBaLKaBdWFmNGZnQTBVenM/edit

The shop manual clearly states that a yaw rate/acceleration sensor calibration is necessary after a front-wheel alignment.

Originally Posted By: ComfyShorts

On newer Hunter alignment racks there is an option that comes up after the alignment is complete for vehicles where steering angle sensor and others stability related sensors to be re calibrated. Is it really important? Its not critical if vehicles alignment stays close to factory specs. But if large alignment adjustments are made its very important to re calibrate.
@Critic: Don't re calibrate on your own. When aligning, tech puts vehicle in exact steer ahead position based on HIS steering wheel centering BEFORE front toe adjustment. In other words if your steering wheel centering differs from the tech who did the alignment, your re calibration is inaccurate in relations to the actual alignment even if you centered steering wheel perfectly. I'm tired at the moment let me know if I need to clarify something.


I am somewhat familiar with the Hunter code link system. We tried on my Prius and it did not work correctly, and the EPS started doing weird things. The steering became stiff for some reason. After clearing the stored data and doing a calibration with Techstream, all was well again.

The Prius factory service manual presumes that the alignment was done correctly and that the steering wheel was properly centered. The instructions on the shop manual do not state that the zero point calibration needs to be performed on an alignment rack or in conjunction with an alignment. You only need to put the steering wheel in the steer ahead position to initiate the process. One may have replaced a VSC component that did not require an alignment, and may require a zero-point calibration. At least that is my understanding, and has not caused me any problems so far?

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
I took my car to the frame shop here, and they did it the old fashioned way. Seems to be okay to me!


+1 ... I Always take my car to a Frame & Wheel shop for an alignment; never a tire store.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
I took my car to the frame shop here, and they did it the old fashioned way. Seems to be okay to me!


+1 Exactly. Always take your car to a Frame & Wheel shop for an alignment; not a tire store.


Perhaps I'll swing by Johnson's Alignment or West End Alignment in Gardena on my next Socal trip.

But it's hard to convince myself to pay the $120 when I've already paid for a lifetime of "somewhat passable" alignments...

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: The Critic


Perhaps I'll swing by Johnson's Alignment or West End Alignment in Gardena on my next Socal trip.

But it's hard to convince myself to pay the $120 when I've already paid for a lifetime of "somewhat passable" alignments...


Who wants $120 for an alignment? When I go to Chick's Frame & Wheel in Fresno, it's $50 for an alignment and $35
for an alignment inspection. Those guys straighten frames on Freightliner trucks; my little Buick is a toy to them.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: The Critic


Perhaps I'll swing by Johnson's Alignment or West End Alignment in Gardena on my next Socal trip.

But it's hard to convince myself to pay the $120 when I've already paid for a lifetime of "somewhat passable" alignments...


Who wants $120 for an alignment? When I go to Chick's Frame & Wheel in Fresno, it's $50 for an alignment and $35
for an alignment inspection. Those guys straighten frames on Freightliner trucks; my little Buick is a toy to them.

How the heck do you stay in business at those prices?

$120 is fairly average price for a good alignment. West End and Johnson's are probably the best on the west coast. Excellent reputation among the Porsche and tuner crowds.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: The Critic

How the heck do you stay in business at those prices?


Easy ... your soul source of income is not from alignments on Buicks.

 

[stephen9666]

Not recalibrating the steering angle sensor after an alignment can cause ESC issue on Hyundais, so it's not just something that needs to be done to Toyotas.