Hybrids bad for long-term US economy?

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Excerpted from this week's Automotive News.
Significant negative economic impact of hybrid sales, according to the author. An interesting point of view to consider:

As Toyota's Prius is the market-dominating and iconic hybrid, it is the logical subject for a discussion of hybrids and economics.

By the numbers

Although a discussion of the economy, and particularly economics-based numbers, is often boring, a quick review of only four numbers is all that is required to cover the basic points here.

The first number is $3,000. A Prius, driven five years and 125,000 miles (rather than one of the 20-some nonhybrid small cars on the market) will reduce our national crude oil trade debt by approximately $3,000.

The second number is $13,000.

Importing a Japan-sourced Prius will immediately add, in round numbers, $13,000 to our national trade debt.

The next number is $1,700. In 2006, the federal government will give an average $1,700 tax credit to buyers of the Prius.

Another interesting number is $1,000. Some studies indicate that the owner (or series of owners ) may never break even with a Prius hybrid because of higher initial price, costlier insurance, license, general maintenance and battery replacement. Others indicate that the owner (or series of owners) ultimately can save about $1,000.

The money trail and economic consequences of those counteracting trade and ecological policies range from odd to incomprehensible.

There are alternatives

Our federal government, deep in debt and without sufficient funds to repair our highways or provide decent health care, will borrow from a domestic or overseas source, possibly Japan, the $1,700 to provide each Prius buyer with the tax credit, thus adding a net $10,000 (the $13,000 minus the $3,000) to our trade debt and $1,700 to our federal debt.

Hybrids may or may not be the ultimate environmental solution, but there are alternatives to the current practices.

The Prius could be manufactured in the United States, thus eliminating much of the per-unit trade debt.

Also, more of the clean and fuel-efficient PZEV-configured small cars (PZEV stands for partial zero emissions vehicles) could be added to U.S. production schedules. So the tax credits that support the often negative-economic hybrids could be reallocated.

Additionally, cleaner, reformulated gasoline, alcohol, diesel and meaningful gas-guzzler laws could be equally productive.

There must be a balance between ecological and economic requirements.
 
This situation is our fault not some other countries.Japan is building hybrids to help the US reduce it's oil demands.
It's our own short sightedness and greed that has produced this situation. A negative savings rate- think about that for a few minutes.
 
A really good thing doesn't need to be subsidized.

A fuel economy gauge on every car and truck would make the bigggest difference, since it would teach everyone how to get the most miles for their money.

Building the best road surface makes a big difference.

http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/pdf/MPG_Secrets_Whitepaper.pdf
page 23
Road surface rolling resistance, vs.new concrete:

Concrete polished (best mpg) –12%
Asphalt with finish coat 1%
medium coarse finish 4%
coarse aggregate 8%
Chip and Seal Blacktop (worst mpg) 33%
 
Won't polished concrete create a surface that is slipperier, leading to increased accidents and loss of life because of increased braking distances and reduced traction for collision avoidance maneuvers?

Every plus has a minus.
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But increased loss of life results in less drivers, and hence, less gasoline being used. Oh yeah! Reeeejected!

(Thanks for the link BTW, interesting reading!)
 
What I don't get about these hybrids is this:

My co-worker with Toyota Prius gets about 40MPG.

My car, Pontiac Sunfire 2004 gets 35MPG going up and down mountains. I have a 220 mile drive to and from work every day. I've gotten 45MPG on a flat top going cross country (CA to IA). I do have a ScanGuage - use that as my MPG indicator for trips.


I'd be interested in Hybrids if they got at LEAST 60-70MPG otherwise they are not worth it.
 
They should have a MPG screen, and, like in Windows when you transfer files, little animated dollar bills flying out of a wallet shaped icon and bursting in flames. The faster you drive, the more often a dollar goes up in flames.
 
Ha ha! Sounds good.

I've seen a few of these articles popping up lately. I believe the hybrid honeymoon is starting to come to an end for a lot of people. "Wow! Super cool new technology! I'm so happy I can get XXX mpg in my new gas-sipping wonder mobile! What's that? Your neighbor's ratty old inline 4 beater gets over 30mpg and every other country in the world is buying up simple 50mpg hatchbacks and scooters that run on the smell of an oily rag? And they're affordable? Hmmm... Well, at least my car is still better looking than theirs."
 
OriginHacker21 tell me how many miles you get per tank and the tank capacity.(Even better is to drive it then fill it back up and go by how many gallons you were able to put back in and the mileage you went) I doubt you get 35 mpg driving the mountains and 45 on the flat unless you are going 40-45mph in overdrive. I will not say it is impossible, and I won't say it isn't really happening, but I do not see the scanguage as an accurate measurement tool unless it has been compared with the methods I mentioned above to make sure it is indeed correct.
 
I got 40 mpg out of an older FWD Subaru that was EPA rated at 29, but that was at 63 mph. With a good tailwind (travelling east?) 45 might be possible. 04 Sunfire manual is EPA rated at 37 mpg.

On the subject of hybrids, if you coast a long time to every stop, you should get comparable mpg numbers to a hybrid, since you're not losing much to braking.
 
the summer of '81, my dad, friend and i drove a Datsun 510 hatchback from Wichita,KS to Indanapolis,IN and averaged OVER 50mpg for the entire trip. from K.C to St.Louis, i averaged 52.3mpg while at the wheel. so, that is with 3 people and luggage. 25 years ago.

now my friend mike had a honda insight. got almost 70mpg out of it until it got totaled. very odd car to drive.
 
A golf/jetta TDI should be able to give you 40+ mpg on the hwy as well. I haven't driven a Prius, but I'm guessing the VW would be more fun to drive as well.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Schism:
I doubt you get 35 mpg driving the mountains and 45 on the flat unless you are going 40-45mph in overdrive.

Try driving behind a hybrid on an uphill mountain road. Battery gets depleted, and the car becomes a snail.

I've been stuck behind two in such circumstances, with long lines of cars piling up behind.
 
Instead of an instantaneous gas guage:

How about a dial where you can limit the amount of gas the engine can consume to some number calibrated in MPG. So if you want to get 30 MPG (or some other random number) set the dial to here, and the engine computer will not allow any more throttle (e.g. power) that that which will achieve the dial-indicated MPG.

Nah--nobody would ever go for it....
 
Mitch, that's actually a good idea. The override should be a "catch" or "click" midway down the pedal and in an emergency one could stomp on the pedal for an instant accelleration bypass.

If I had an instantaneous gas consumption gauge, I would "nurse" my car to a higher speed on flatlands to gain inertia for upcoming hills. Something cruise control isn't smart enough for yet. Oh wait, I already do this... but the gauge would vindicate my method!
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Schism & oilyriser - I've religiously kept a record of my MPG in a notebook (total miles divided by gallons of gas at fillup). Only
recently did I get a ScanGuage
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Engine: 2.2L Ecotec 140HP Dohc
Gas Tank: 14.1 gallons

I've never taken my car to the E or the red line before the E. I've recorded 320 miles with 4 gallons left in the tank as the most I've ever driven.

Anyway - When I lived in Iowa, driving on flattops I got 40-45mpg on average going . In California, in the City (very little highway) I usually get 28-30MPG.

Highway driving to work when I take my car (220 miles round trip) which include mountains & downhills - I average 35MPG @ 70mph. Just saying that my friend with a Toyota Prius taking same rout averages 40MPG.
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sunruh - Because of the small engine in hybrid I'm betting their MPG really shows when driving on a flat surface going 60-70mph. Do you remember how big your Datsun engine was? Thats pretty awesome @ 50+MPG
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Jeez, it would be nice getting 70MPG!
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