Transporting Keystone oil By Rail

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Warren Buffet, a "friend of Barry" has a rather large interest in BNSF aka the Burlington Northern Railroad. Guess
which railraod is hauling those tankers? Never happens HERE, right?
 
The now blocked Keystone pipeline would have been the alternative to the BNSF tank cars. Politicians from BOTH parties want that pipeline built.
 
Originally Posted By: tommygunn
It must be cheaper than putting it on a ship or they can't get to oil to the ship.


There are no tanker navigable waterways available anywhere near where this oil is produced. It's in central Canada.
 
Canada does not have a significant pipeline to a seaport for loading oil for export. Keystone XL would have provided that access via the Gulf Coast, as well as providing oil for the US market directly.

Now, the Canadian government is planning on doing the exact opposite of what Obama did. They've indicated that they'll shortcut the environmenal impact hearings and force a major pipeline to the British Columbia coast to go ahead in the face of (US funded) environmental opposition.

Not only is the opportunity to tranship the oil lost to the US, the Canadian government is actively seeking markets in China and Japan. The oil that could have kept prices under control in the US is going to be sold elsewhere.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
For some time now and especially in the last 2 months, I have noticed a hugh increase in tanker rail traffic through this area. Trains pulling very long lines of tanker cars which I never noticed before.


I see you're in Illinois - whereabouts? I see lots of tank trains here too but most or all of them are ethanol trains from Iowa and Minnesota. There are three or four routes they use through this area, depending on their source.

I'm all in favor of moving oil (and other goods) by rail, and hauling bulk commodities such as oil are one of the things the railroads do best.
 
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: tig1
For some time now and especially in the last 2 months, I have noticed a hugh increase in tanker rail traffic through this area. Trains pulling very long lines of tanker cars which I never noticed before.


I see you're in Illinois - whereabouts? I see lots of tank trains here too but most or all of them are ethanol trains from Iowa and Minnesota. There are three or four routes they use through this area, depending on their source.

I'm all in favor of moving oil (and other goods) by rail, and hauling bulk commodities such as oil are one of the things the railroads do best.


Pipelines beat railroads hands down, economically and environmentally. Pipelines don't make noise, don't T-bone cars at crossings, you don't have to wait for the pipeline to clear the intersection, less air emissions and the cost is probably less than a fourth of rail cost. And there is barely enough capacity to move coal and grain by rail. No way can this country function on moving all the new oil production by rail.
 
Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: tig1
For some time now and especially in the last 2 months, I have noticed a hugh increase in tanker rail traffic through this area. Trains pulling very long lines of tanker cars which I never noticed before.


I see you're in Illinois - whereabouts? I see lots of tank trains here too but most or all of them are ethanol trains from Iowa and Minnesota. There are three or four routes they use through this area, depending on their source.

I'm all in favor of moving oil (and other goods) by rail, and hauling bulk commodities such as oil are one of the things the railroads do best.


I live close to St. Louis. As for ethanol, we have at least two ethanol plants within 15 miles.
 
Pipeline is good, as long as it detour around sensitive area. Why do they have to attach things like 60 days limit and go straight through an aquafier? rather than going around it?
 
Originally Posted By: Burt
don't T-bone cars at crossings,


Cars GET T-boned at intersections.

It's not like a train track can sneak up on you.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
...It's not like a train track can sneak up on you.


The two parallel rails do seem to have an IQ reducing effect, particularly where they cross a road. Must be the geometry or something.
 
Originally Posted By: jaj

Not only is the opportunity to tranship the oil lost to the US, the Canadian government is actively seeking markets in China and Japan. The oil that could have kept prices under control in the US is going to be sold elsewhere.


If it hits the world market that's good enough.
 
Very, very likely you are seeing ethanol trains, all heading to points south and east. The bulk of the ethanol used in the US is refined in the upper midwest, and it all gets shipped by rail to the rest of the country.
 
Originally Posted By: jaj
Canada does not have a significant pipeline to a seaport for loading oil for export. Keystone XL would have provided that access via the Gulf Coast, as well as providing oil for the US market directly.

Now, the Canadian government is planning on doing the exact opposite of what Obama did. They've indicated that they'll shortcut the environmenal impact hearings and force a major pipeline to the British Columbia coast to go ahead in the face of (US funded) environmental opposition.

Not only is the opportunity to tranship the oil lost to the US, the Canadian government is actively seeking markets in China and Japan. The oil that could have kept prices under control in the US is going to be sold elsewhere.


The primary reason reason TransCanada wanted to build the XL pipeline was to get the tar sands crude to American refineries in the Gulf that are capable of refining the junk into useable transportation fuel. The refineries are happily located in a Foreign Trade Zone that means the refined product will be exempt from US Customs duties and US State and Federal Taxes - - as long as it's EXPORTED! The refineries are, from what I've read, configured to refine middle distillates (diesel and jet fuel).

Of the 6 companies that have contracted to receive the product from the XL pipeline, if its ever built, 5 are foreign owned. Their marketing intentions haven't been made public but they will probably follow the model of the sixth contracted company, Valero. In speeches and in investment guides, Valero has made its intentions clear: it intends to sell the middle distillates to China and South America.

In all likelihood not a drop of diesel from the pipeline will ever reach the cars and trucks of American consumers.

In a lot of media coverage, the crude that would be transported thru the XL pipeline is spoken of as if it were conventional crude oil. It is not. It is "dilbit" (diluted bitumen), a tar like substance that has to be dissolved in a carcinogenic (benzene) and potentially explosive broth of condensed natural gas. It has to be heated and kept at temps of 160 F and pumped at pressures of 1440 psi to move it along. There's an existing pipeline (I think it's called the Lakehead pipeline and it's owned by Enbridge Energy) that takes dilbit from Alberta to refineries in the upper midwest. In July 2010 it spilled 1.2 million gals of dilbit into the Kalamazoo (Mich.) river. The benzene-carrying dilutent either flashed into the atmosphere or went into the water. The bitumen sank to the bottom of the river like a rock. Twenty mos. and $725 million dollars later Enbridge has still not been able to clean up the spill. A recent study done by the MIch. Dept of Health shows that folks in the spill area have developed respiratory and nervous system problems consistent with acute benzene exposure.

The supposed job creation figures expounded for the pipeline are a complete joke - - really farcical but too much to go into here.

The XL pipeline is one big con job. If it's built, the US will take all the safety and environmental risk and get nothing in return.

The "pragmatic" Pres. Obama has apparently caved again.
 
I'll selfishly state I'd rather not see the XL pipeline completed, but not for environmental reasons.

Instead, as a consumer in the upper midwest, we've benefited for years from the limited ability of Canada to reach other markets, and our refineries are setup to refine the heavy sour crude that is typical from that region. Note that one of the biggest (if not the biggest US refiner) of heavy sour crude is located just outside of the Twin Cities.

At the moment, the crude from that region is selling at nearly $25 a barrel less than the crude oil prices typically referenced as benchmarks, and the disparity keeps rising the longer that the XL pipeline is delayed.

On the whole, the idea that this will benefit the US user is likely a wash - some will benefit, some will lose (like us up here).
 
Originally Posted By: m6pwr
Originally Posted By: jaj
Canada does not have a significant pipeline to a seaport for loading oil for export. Keystone XL would have provided that access via the Gulf Coast, as well as providing oil for the US market directly.

Now, the Canadian government is planning on doing the exact opposite of what Obama did. They've indicated that they'll shortcut the environmenal impact hearings and force a major pipeline to the British Columbia coast to go ahead in the face of (US funded) environmental opposition.

Not only is the opportunity to tranship the oil lost to the US, the Canadian government is actively seeking markets in China and Japan. The oil that could have kept prices under control in the US is going to be sold elsewhere.


The primary reason reason TransCanada wanted to build the XL pipeline was to get the tar sands crude to American refineries in the Gulf that are capable of refining the junk into useable transportation fuel. The refineries are happily located in a Foreign Trade Zone that means the refined product will be exempt from US Customs duties and US State and Federal Taxes - - as long as it's EXPORTED! The refineries are, from what I've read, configured to refine middle distillates (diesel and jet fuel).

Of the 6 companies that have contracted to receive the product from the XL pipeline, if its ever built, 5 are foreign owned. Their marketing intentions haven't been made public but they will probably follow the model of the sixth contracted company, Valero. In speeches and in investment guides, Valero has made its intentions clear: it intends to sell the middle distillates to China and South America.

In all likelihood not a drop of diesel from the pipeline will ever reach the cars and trucks of American consumers.

In a lot of media coverage, the crude that would be transported thru the XL pipeline is spoken of as if it were conventional crude oil. It is not. It is "dilbit" (diluted bitumen), a tar like substance that has to be dissolved in a carcinogenic (benzene) and potentially explosive broth of condensed natural gas. It has to be heated and kept at temps of 160 F and pumped at pressures of 1440 psi to move it along. There's an existing pipeline (I think it's called the Lakehead pipeline and it's owned by Enbridge Energy) that takes dilbit from Alberta to refineries in the upper midwest. In July 2010 it spilled 1.2 million gals of dilbit into the Kalamazoo (Mich.) river. The benzene-carrying dilutent either flashed into the atmosphere or went into the water. The bitumen sank to the bottom of the river like a rock. Twenty mos. and $725 million dollars later Enbridge has still not been able to clean up the spill. A recent study done by the MIch. Dept of Health shows that folks in the spill area have developed respiratory and nervous system problems consistent with acute benzene exposure.

The supposed job creation figures expounded for the pipeline are a complete joke - - really farcical but too much to go into here.

The XL pipeline is one big con job. If it's built, the US will take all the safety and environmental risk and get nothing in return.

The "pragmatic" Pres. Obama has apparently caved again.



Thank you for the details, it is hard to see this when everyone and their mothers want to blame the other side with only emotions involved (me included).
 
Quote:
The XL pipeline is one big con job. If it's built, the US will take all the safety and environmental risk and get nothing in return.

I wonder if such a pipeline, carrying such nasty things, would be necessary if a refinery could be built closer to the source?
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
The XL pipeline is one big con job. If it's built, the US will take all the safety and environmental risk and get nothing in return.

I wonder if such a pipeline, carrying such nasty things, would be necessary if a refinery could be built closer to the source?


Lots of refining capacity already here, 3 or 4 in my local area alone.
 
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
Very, very likely you are seeing ethanol trains, all heading to points south and east. The bulk of the ethanol used in the US is refined in the upper midwest, and it all gets shipped by rail to the rest of the country.


I am seeing more of these tanker car trains all the time. Even more than when I first posted this thread. Today I noticed the engine was a Canada Pacific engine pulling a zillion tankers south bound. I also see them going north bound as well.
 
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