Mobil 1 AFE or Royal Purple 0W-20

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JAG
The Synerlec sulfurized ester additive in some Royal Purple oils made it unique. Not enough time has passed for the performance to be reasonably characterized of the new versions of RP that lack Synerlec.

It doesn't matter that RP is a blender and XOM is a producer and blender. RP had more flexibility in what they could use because they didn't always have to keep the most current API specs which tend to impose more and more strict chemical limits with each new iteration. It was/is not a fair fight because of that.


So who makes the components of "Synerlec", XOM? Infineum? SOPUS? HATCO? BP? Obviously RP isn't making it in-house.

And how does RP have more flexibility? XOM has "race" lubes that don't need to comply with any of the given spec's, it isn't like XOM is forced to walk the line and RP can run all over the field because they won't pay for certifications and approvals.

If anything, it has gone the other way. While XOM has always had both mainstream and racing oils, now RP is getting into blending mainstream standards-compliant oils to try and compete with XOM, SOPUS, BP, Ashland....etc. Why do you think that is?

So yes it does matter that RP is a blender and XOM is a producer and a blender. Because XOM can make products that only they have access to. This could include proprietary base stocks, various types of AN's and Esters, and they can most certainly use Infineum and XOM Chemical to fab themselves up some unique additives if they so choose. If Mercedes comes to XOM TODAY and says "we need an oil that does THIS" XOM can make it. They don't need to contact anybody and see if those components even exist before they agree to it, they are Exxon-freakin-Mobil, they've got the resources to make whatever the heck these companies want! That's what happens when your revenue is half a trillion dollars!

And THAT why Honda went to XOM to develop HTO-06, that's why Ferrari has an agreement with SOPUS, that's WHY BMW has a Motorsport agreement with BP. These companies can develop what these engine manufacturers NEED to win races!

So yes JAG, you are right, it isn't a fair fight. But you are wrong as to why and as to who has the advantage. There is nothing stopping anybody from running Mobil 1 0w30 race oil in their street cars. You've got your angle wrong.

 

[DragRace]

Wow,another RP thread garbaged up by fellow Bobistheoilguy veteran members. Keep it up gang,your making this site look worse and worse month by month by argueing over rediculous subjects like this.

 

[JAG]

Overkill, I agree with what you said in your last post and agree with what I wrote. They are compatible because my statements were based on different assumptions than yours. Be not so fast to say someone is wrong, my friend. I was assuming we are not deciding who can make the best oil. I also assumed we are discussing RP API SL, and SN xW-20 oils (since I believe both are still being sold) as well as M1 API SN xW-20 oils. I assumed we are not discussing racing oils by either company. The current M1 racing oils have very high amounts of antiwear additives and would be unsuitable for street use in typical modern vehicles. Same for RP racing oils.

I'm guessing RP decided to make API SN oils because it would increase sales by having oils that meet the current API spec.

I mentioned RP API SL oils for three reasons: Deven mentioned his wear observations with RP oils and I assume they were on RP API SL oils; also, one major difference between those oils and RP API SN oils is the dropping of Synerlec; there are still some RP API SL oils being sold.

RP API SL oils which all contain Synerlec had/have sulfur concentrations well above what's typical for oils of that API and later specifications. That is an example of the "not a fair fight" that I referred to.

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Point blank: If Royal Purple was REALLY better (and I'm sorry, but I can't help but consider your take on this biased) then why aren't Porsche, Mercedes, General Motors, BMW, Audi, Ferrari, Honda....etc using it in their race cars?

Unfortunately it boils down to $$$. When two oils are so close in performance, the edge is always going to go to the lowest bidder. ExxonMobil has the resources and finances to go after these accounts that Royal Purple can't. Its kinda like Walmart has the power to stand up to a vendor because of their stature that a mom and pop convenient store just cannot.

What I am trying to say is simply this....we(I own the shop but not the mechanic) have torn down plenty of engines run on Royal Purple and we have torn down plenty of engines run on Mobil 1(both usually race engines) and each time the wear on the Royal Purple run engines has been less. You can argue that each engine has had its unique journey and thus not a valid comparison. But in all fairness when you see this time and time again, that Royal Purple engines has less wear, I will believe my eyes before anything else.

You can sit here and write a letter as to what Mobil is but in my eyes what Mobil is not is a superior product to Royal Purple and its based simply on real life work and experience.

P.S. And to answer your question about Synerlec, it is an in house product made in their facility in Texas. This was confirmed to me by Wayne in PR at RP.

 

[chevrofreak]

Some of the most ridiculous posts, opinions and theories I have ever read on BITOG are in this thread...

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Point blank: If Royal Purple was REALLY better (and I'm sorry, but I can't help but consider your take on this biased) then why aren't Porsche, Mercedes, General Motors, BMW, Audi, Ferrari, Honda....etc using it in their race cars?

You'll find most of them use Mobil 1, Castrol or a SOPUS product (Ferrari).
Its because these LARGE race car companies get lots of funding support too, jointly, from the largest oil companies.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
ExxonMobil's revenue was 486 BILLION dollars in 2011.
Royal Dutch Shell's revenue was 368 BILLION dollars in 2011.

ExxonMobil probably made more money in the last 30 minutes than Royal Purple will make all year.

Highest revenues, yes, BUT this does not prove that they are the best lubricant companies!

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
So do I believe Royal Purple is "better" than Mobil 1? No. They don't have the capacity to be better than Mobil 1. They don't have the budget, the resources or the ability to develop their own lubricant components. And they don't have the flexibility to make changes to their product's core components on the fly just by engineering something new.... Because they BUY their base oils and additive "packages" from these companies that you somehow construe as inferior.
Without getting technical, just want to point out that the Big oil Cos simply cannot afford to make the best quality oils as a natural phenomena... they are the largest refiners and additive makers... hence they must sell ALL the qualities (poor, bad, average, good, and above) to be able to run the refineries and additive facilities. And they must sell in LARGE quantities too. So therefore folks like RP etc. have a choice to select only the best of both worlds, while not having the burden of having to have to sell the lowest qualities as well.
Therefore the biggest oil companies must make low performance and average performance products in large quantities as well.
Its pure economics. That's my 0.02.
Tell me if you disagree!

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
EDIT: Just to clarify: I'm not saying Royal Purple is a poor product in any way shape or form. I'm currently using their ATF. I'm saying they don't have the capability to blend a better lube than Mobil does.
This is not a universal truth, please see my comment above!

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
So yes it does matter that RP is a blender and XOM is a producer and a blender. Because XOM can make products that only they have access to. This could include proprietary base stocks, various types of AN's and Esters, and they can most certainly use Infineum and XOM Chemical to fab themselves up some unique additives if they so choose.
If this was even close to the truth, XOM would be all over the world advertizing their brilliant NEW additive in some newly branded exotic engine oil. Guess why they didnt ?!!!

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Point blank: If Royal Purple was REALLY better (and I'm sorry, but I can't help but consider your take on this biased) then why aren't Porsche, Mercedes, General Motors, BMW, Audi, Ferrari, Honda....etc using it in their race cars?

You'll find most of them use Mobil 1, Castrol or a SOPUS product (Ferrari).


You do realize that these race car teams take sponsorship dollars and along with that comes the requirement of using said sponsor's products in their vehicles. So does that make the sponsor's oil, tires, etc... the best out there and the 1st choice of the driver/team mechanic OR is it they use it because of the sponsorship agreement? Let's be realistic here and honest. Some may choose it and prefer it but a large segment of those using it do so for the sponsor dollars and free/discounted product.

Mobil 1 is a good oil but just because it is used by race teams does not make it the best. That is the same basic, old and tired argument, that because M1 comes FF in some vehicles it must be the best oil out there. Just hogwash. Many times it comes down to Mobil paying to be used. That can be sponsoring a race team or paying a car mfg to use their oil and/or offering them the lowest bid for oil. It isn't always because they offer the best product. The one thing Mobil is hands down the best at is marketing.

As to why RP is not used by more race teams again it comes down to money. Mobil has the resources to pay sponsorship and to provide product that RP does not. If race teams had to buy their own product at full cost and support themselves financially, without sponsors, so it meant they used the products they truly felt were the best do you think Mobil 1 would still be as popular as it is? I would wager Mobil 1 would not be the most used oil. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

So are you also saying Mobil 1 is better than Amsoil and Redline because they are not the big race sponsor Mobil is? Do you really think Mobil 1 is superior to all 3 of those oil brands? You must based on your RP comments if you really meant them.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Does Royal Purple own a refinery? Do they have the ability to develop additive packages, base oils and the like in-house? No? So doesn't that mean they are BUYING these products from Mobil, SOPUS, Lubrizol...etc? So I'm having a hard time following how a BLENDER, mixing base oils and additives from these companies, would be able to blend an oil that is superior than what comes from those companies.


You obviously know very little about Royal Purple and what they do. Maybe you should educate yourself a little more before making claims as quoted above; many of which are false. About the only correct things you posted is that they do not have a refinery.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
EDIT: Just to clarify: I'm not saying Royal Purple is a poor product in any way shape or form. I'm currently using their ATF. I'm saying they don't have the capability to blend a better lube than Mobil does.


You may not think you are talking down the quality of RP products but you sure come across that way in thread after thread.

 

[BillyTheKid]

A race car engine is not a fair comparison really. Real race teams, etc would be tearing the engine down much more often to really see anything unless something is wrong. You could run camel [censored] in a race engine if it is being rebuilt every race or a few. Until someone unbiased takes the same vehicles side by side and does some real long term testing, then breaking down to check, it is all assumptions and opinions. Racing is another ball game that is not the same. [censored], I could set up a same car as someone else that races but my tuning be wrong or being over fueled, and crush the oil or engine.

 

[Garak]

You know, "superiority" is a term tossed about here, but the context is really the issue. RP, until recently, had no modern API/ILSAC oils. Would RP 5w-30 SL protect better in a North American or Japanese engine currently under warranty and requiring SM/GF-4 or better? Perhaps. Which would provide "superior" protection for your warranty, though? Both RP and XOM stand behind their products.

Regardless, all oils are compromises. There's a reason that M1 isn't identical to Edge or PU, let alone PYB or Chevron conventional. Heck, M1 isn't identical across the M1 product line. If there were one perfect formulation, it would be used by all.

Someone using M1 in the appropriate grade and with appropriate specifications over appropriate OCIs is going to have a very long running engine, assuming no engine design or build faults. The same thing applies to someone running PU or PP or Amsoil or RP.

And mine will do just as well on PYB.

 

[buster]

Well said Garak.

 

[Garak]

Thank you, Buster. Really, though, they're all good oils. If I was forced to stick with only RP, or only M1, or only Amsoil, or whatever modern API/ILSAC choice that was foisted upon me, I'd sleep well.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: buster
Well said Garak.


I agree 100%. I actually am not trying to pimp RP or anything. Just get tired of it being torn down all the time. Most modern oils are good and your engine will run well on them when OC's are done on time. RP is good, M1 is good, Pennzoil is good, and so on. Why people can't just use and like the brands they want and allow others the same courtesy is beyond me.

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: buster
Well said Garak.


I agree 100%. I actually am not trying to pimp RP or anything. Just get tired of it being torn down all the time. Most modern oils are good and your engine will run well on them when OC's are done on time. RP is good, M1 is good, Pennzoil is good, and so on. Why people can't just use and like the brands they want and allow others the same courtesy is beyond me.


x100

 

[Dupree]

The human head weighs 8 lbs.........just easing the tension

Use either with confidence, I would go AFE from an econmics standpoint, other than that either will serve you well.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: buster
Well said Garak.


I agree 100%. I actually am not trying to pimp RP or anything. Just get tired of it being torn down all the time. Most modern oils are good and your engine will run well on them when OC's are done on time. RP is good, M1 is good, Pennzoil is good, and so on. Why people can't just use and like the brands they want and allow others the same courtesy is beyond me.


I have never used RP but I'm sure it will protect an engine for tons of miles. In the end, that's all that's all that counts.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI

You obviously know very little about Royal Purple and what they do. Maybe you should educate yourself a little more before making claims as quoted above; many of which are false. About the only correct things you posted is that they do not have a refinery.


So instead of buying lubricant and additive components from the majors like every other blender, they have the magic additive pixie deliver "Royal Purple Exclusive" add packs and components?

Perhaps I haven't "educated" myself enough. I need to go watch some more one-armed bandit advertising videos I guess.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: buster
Well said Garak.


I agree 100%. I actually am not trying to pimp RP or anything. Just get tired of it being torn down all the time. Most modern oils are good and your engine will run well on them when OC's are done on time. RP is good, M1 is good, Pennzoil is good, and so on. Why people can't just use and like the brands they want and allow others the same courtesy is beyond me.


I agree with Garak as well (weird eh?). I think they are all excellent within a common performance envelope. But it was a claim of Royal Purple being "better" that I was responding to. I wasn't "pimping" Mobil 1 anymore than you were "pimping" Royal Purple in your defence of their products. My argument is that Mobil has the resources to make the best oil; they have greater resources than Royal Purple does. I don't think anybody can dispute that fact.

In the market, as I've stated on here before, and I learned from Doug: All oils that meet a given set of certifications will perform very similarly. I think that is a very frequently overlooked truth.

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: buster
Well said Garak.


I agree 100%. I actually am not trying to pimp RP or anything. Just get tired of it being torn down all the time. Most modern oils are good and your engine will run well on them when OC's are done on time. RP is good, M1 is good, Pennzoil is good, and so on. Why people can't just use and like the brands they want and allow others the same courtesy is beyond me.


I agree with Garak as well (weird eh?). I think they are all excellent within a common performance envelope. But it was a claim of Royal Purple being "better" that I was responding to. I wasn't "pimping" Mobil 1 anymore than you were "pimping" Royal Purple in your defence of their products. My argument is that Mobil has the resources to make the best oil; they have greater resources than Royal Purple does. I don't think anybody can dispute that fact.

In the market, as I've stated on here before, and I learned from Doug: All oils that meet a given set of certifications will perform very similarly. I think that is a very frequently overlooked truth.


Mobil 1 makes the best oil?! Seriously? Man where have I been,because tear downs that I have done and others engine builders that I know,do not always show this statement of yours to be true. Nice try though.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: buster
Well said Garak.


I agree 100%. I actually am not trying to pimp RP or anything. Just get tired of it being torn down all the time. Most modern oils are good and your engine will run well on them when OC's are done on time. RP is good, M1 is good, Pennzoil is good, and so on. Why people can't just use and like the brands they want and allow others the same courtesy is beyond me.


I agree with Garak as well (weird eh?). I think they are all excellent within a common performance envelope. But it was a claim of Royal Purple being "better" that I was responding to. I wasn't "pimping" Mobil 1 anymore than you were "pimping" Royal Purple in your defence of their products. My argument is that Mobil has the resources to make the best oil; they have greater resources than Royal Purple does. I don't think anybody can dispute that fact.

In the market, as I've stated on here before, and I learned from Doug: All oils that meet a given set of certifications will perform very similarly. I think that is a very frequently overlooked truth.


Mobil 1 makes the best oil?! Seriously? Man where have I been,because tear downs that I have done and others engine builders that I know,do not always show this statement of yours to be true. Nice try though.


For one thing no one has said M1 makes the best oils. Another is your experience with engine rebuilds doesn't completely match that of others. Last year my friend rebuilt his Ford 3.0 V-6 with 185K. Reason: His wife submerged the engine in a flooded country road and hydrauliced the engine and broke a rod. He tore down the engine and it still had factory specs. Oil: M1 10-30. Nice try though.