Recent Topics
Ruger 10/22 naysayers..
by OtisBlkR1
08/01/14 07:07 PM
'96 Corolla 3 Quarts Low on Oil.
by Turk
08/01/14 06:50 PM
Oh man... This isn't good.
by CHARLIEBRONSON21
08/01/14 06:47 PM
A day in St Louis..tips ?
by OtisBlkR1
08/01/14 06:42 PM
Road Glide returns for 2015
by DuckRyder
08/01/14 06:25 PM
QSHP 10w30, 2013 Optima 2.4L GDI, 5K miles
by jstutz
08/01/14 06:07 PM
Charity
by Kestas
08/01/14 05:27 PM
Another Hyundai Recall 419.000 vehicles
by tenderloin
08/01/14 05:07 PM
ethanol - bacteria - corrosion article
by Rick in PA
08/01/14 04:48 PM
IPhone 4 Can Only Hear Me On Speaker
by Oil Changer
08/01/14 04:46 PM
Ok to mix Peak and O'Reilly 50/50?
by 2012AccentSE
08/01/14 04:11 PM
40 ho mercury gear oil
by mobilaltima
08/01/14 03:56 PM
Newest Members
glgoodwin22, RandyG99, wamaty, jmorscha, raoulduck
50826 Registered Users
Who's Online
112 registered (77GrandPrix, 05corollaLE, andrewlg, aquariuscsm, 123Saab, Bandito440, 11 invisible), 1795 Guests and 227 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
50826 Members
64 Forums
217181 Topics
3419923 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#2507990 - 01/27/12 10:03 PM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: ZeeOSix]
SubLGT Offline


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
...........I'm wondering if that 12 GPM at 5000 RPM with 176 deg F oil is actually what the engine & filter is flowing, or if that's a raw volumetric output of the oil pump with no restriction provided by the engine + filter oiling system (?).........


Good question, the service manual provides no clue.

Top
#2508514 - 01/28/12 01:36 PM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: ZeeOSix]
SubLGT Offline


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
...........So that might mean the engine will flow this 12.4 GPM at 5000 RPM with 176 deg F oil when the oil pump is maxed out at 85 PSI (ie, in pressure relief mode).


Maybe the answer is somewhere in this 21 page thread about Subaru oil pumps and filters: shrug

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1861033&page=1

Top
#2508606 - 01/28/12 03:23 PM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: bluesubie]
flstffxe Offline


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 137
Loc: MN, USA
One thing to keep in mind is that there are several oil pumps Subaru has used on various engines and all are basically interchangeable. Each of these pumps has its own spec for pressure/s, and volume at given RPMs.

7mm
8mm
9mm
10mm
11mm
12mm

Here is a cheat sheet for the volumes and pressures of the above pumps that has been posted on the web before.


To pull specs from a manual I have at hand(2008 Forester NA), here is how the specs for flow, pressure at RPM with oil at temp are stated for a 10mm pump.

Oil Pump Performance(oil temp @ 176F):
- 600RPM
Discharge pressure = 14 PSI
Discharge rate = 4.9 US qt/min

- 5,000RPM
Discharge pressure = 43 PSI
Discharge rate = 49.7 US qt/min

Being that the flow rates are stated at a given PSI, it would lead one to believe that they are to take into account the restriction provided by a factory speced engine build.

If this was a bench test one would expect to see the listed pressure to be close to zero or none given at all, as you can't have pressure without a restriction at the outlet. Otherwise for a corrected bench test it would likely be listed that you would need to use a specific size orifice to simulate the proper restriction of a factory speced engine.

Even with the listed 9-11GPM it wouldn't worry me as you are only going to see full oil pump out put volume at 5,000RPM+. Which is only going to be in short bursts for a Daily Driver, it at all for some.

In the case of the '08+ STI 11mm pump, another manual I have Specs it at 66.6L/min(or more) @ 56.8PSI. 17.59gal/min(or more) and calls for the same 15208AA12A as the little NAs. Seeing as Napa is doing the same and calls out the Napa Gold 7712 for the '08+ STI and the NAs with the little 10mm pump, I again don't think of the flow as being an issue.

Subaru does not spec the flow for the filter in the manual but a quick email may answer your question more then any of us on the web can speculate. SOAs customer service is pretty good about answering these types of questions.

Top
#2508617 - 01/28/12 03:33 PM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: flstffxe]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 6775
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: flstffxe

Here is a cheat sheet for the volumes and pressures of the above pumps that has been posted on the web before.


To pull specs from a manual I have at hand(2008 Forester NA), here is how the specs for flow, pressure at RPM with oil at temp are stated for a 10mm pump.

Oil Pump Performance(oil temp @ 176F):
- 600RPM
Discharge pressure = 14 PSI
Discharge rate = 4.9 US qt/min

- 5,000RPM
Discharge pressure = 43 PSI
Discharge rate = 49.7 US qt/min

Being that the flow rates are stated at a given PSI, it would lead one to believe that they are to take into account the restriction provided by a factory speced engine build.


If this was a bench test one would expect to see the listed pressure to be close to zero or none given at all, as you can't have pressure without a restriction at the outlet. Otherwise for a corrected bench test it would likely be listed that you would need to use a specific size orifice to simulate the proper restriction of a factory speced engine.


Good info! Yes, it certainly looks like there is some restriction down stream in these flow and pressure specs. One would have to assume they made the restriction factor close to the engine's oiling system to get accurate pump performance data. Or it's possible they actually measured the pressures and flows on the actual engines.

I'm assuming all the specs in the table are with the same oil viscosity (ie, same weight oil at the magical 176 deg F).

Top
#2508854 - 01/28/12 07:46 PM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: bluesubie]
flstffxe Offline


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 137
Loc: MN, USA
The specs on the table are from the service manual/s, which would be using the manufactures recommended oil weight, assembled into a table by "sponaugle" on NASIOC.com IIRC.

The Napa Platinum Filter for this application #PLF 41365 has a even lesser flow of: 7 to 9 gpm

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=PFL41365_0326986717

Top
#2508921 - 01/28/12 09:14 PM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: SubLGT]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 1315
Loc: Midwest
Ah yes, I didn't realize when I started that thread, the debate that would unfold.

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
...........So that might mean the engine will flow this 12.4 GPM at 5000 RPM with 176 deg F oil when the oil pump is maxed out at 85 PSI (ie, in pressure relief mode).


Maybe the answer is somewhere in this 21 page thread about Subaru oil pumps and filters: shrug

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1861033&page=1
_________________________

'09 Subaru Forester .. (Kendall GT-1 Syn Blend 5W30)
'13 Ducati MTS .......... (Silkolene Pro 4 Ester 15W50)

Top
#2509124 - 01/29/12 07:06 AM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: bluesubie]
sayjac Offline


Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 7914
Loc: The Old North State
Trying to figure out what the Xref is for this Wix filter, as mentioned nothing on their website about it. I too wonder if it has an adbv? The info/pic for the Napa doesn't indicate that it has one.

Purolator makes the P1 PL14460 which has 20-25 bypass psi.

Whatever the reason, Subarus do seem to have/require relatively high bypass psi specs.

Top
#2509171 - 01/29/12 08:52 AM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: sayjac]
flstffxe Offline


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 137
Loc: MN, USA
Originally Posted By: sayjac
.... I too wonder if it has an adbv? The info/pic for the Napa doesn't indicate that it has one.

Purolator makes the P1 PL14460 which has 20-25 bypass psi.

........


The Napa Gold version FIL 7712 does indicate that it has a Silicon ADBV.
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=FIL7712_0352281275
Quote:
Part Number: FIL 7712
Product Line: NAPA Gold Filters
Attributes:
Beta Ratio : 2/20=6/20
Burst Pressure : 300 psi
Flow Rate : 9 - 11 gpm
Gasket I.D. (Inches) : 2.173"
Gasket I.D. (mm) : 55 mm
Media Type : Cellulose
Oil Filter Gasket O.D. (Inches) : 2.475"
Oil Filter Gasket O.D. (mm) : 63 mm
Oil Filter Height (Inches) : 2.577"
Oil Filter Height (mm) : 65 mm
Oil Filter O.D. (Inches) : 2.685"
Oil Filter O.D. (mm) : 68 mm
Oil Filter Style : Spin-On Lube Filter
Oil Filter Thread Size (mm) : 20 x 1.50 mm
Features and Benefits: Best Efficiency + Capacity In Industry
Steel Coil Spring
Spiral Wound Center Tube For Industry Leading Strength
Has a 23 lb. By-Pass Relief Valve Setting
Silicon Anti-Drain Back Valve - Industry Leading Life

Holds 45% More Dirt, Last 30% Longer Than Other Leading Brands
21 Micron


While yes the Purolator PL14460 does have the correct bypass valve spec, its increased size puts it too close to the header on many Subarus. Even the little difference between the two in size starts to show up in the oil temps for some or some of those with aftermarket headers can't fit it at all. The OEM Honeywell/Subaru 152208AA12A measures:

OD: 68.3mm
Length: 67mm

While the Purolator PL14460 measures:
OD: 80.01mm
Legnth: 74.93mm

11.71mm larger in diameter, and 7.93mm taller.

Top
#2509214 - 01/29/12 09:29 AM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: flstffxe]
sayjac Offline


Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 7914
Loc: The Old North State
^^^^Yeah, different filter than Napa Platinum (PFL41365) link posted above to which I was referring in my previous post.

Still no Xref to be found on the FIL 7712. What Subaru models does it fit?

Apparently the PL14460 works on Subaru's like the 05 WRX STi where the exhaust manifold/header doesn't surround the filter. fwiw, that filter location (surrounded by header) is one of the strangest I've seen.


Top
#2509248 - 01/29/12 09:58 AM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: LoneRanger]
bluesubie Offline


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 1825
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Ah yes, I didn't realize when I started that thread, the debate that would unfold.

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
...........So that might mean the engine will flow this 12.4 GPM at 5000 RPM with 176 deg F oil when the oil pump is maxed out at 85 PSI (ie, in pressure relief mode).


Maybe the answer is somewhere in this 21 page thread about Subaru oil pumps and filters: shrug

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1861033&page=1

World's best oil filter thread! LOL

And I'm sure there are folks that believe that we way overanalyze this and have run 8-11 psi filters for hundreds of thousands of miles without a problem.

-Dennis
_________________________
'04 Subaru Forester 2.5XT
Motul X-cess 5W-40 | OEM Honeywell filter

Top
#2509277 - 01/29/12 10:36 AM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: bluesubie]
flstffxe Offline


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 137
Loc: MN, USA
At present the 7712 is currently listed for:
- Forester 2001-present EJ25(NA/Turbo)
- Impreza 2001-present EJ25(NA/Turbo)
- Legacy/Outback 2001-present EJ25(NA/Turbo)

Basically any 2001+ EJ25. However I would expect that to change as Subaru currently specs the 15208AA12A filter for these vehicles.
- Legacy H4(NA and Turbo) 1990-2012
- Impreza(NA and Turbo) 1993-2011
- Impreza STI 2004-2011
- Forester(NA and Turbo) 1998-2010
- Baja(NA and Turbo) 2003-2006

It will be next to impossible to find an appropriate cross-reference via other manufactures Xref tools when WIX is the first to correct their filter for this application and their own site has yet to be updated and this filter(WIX 57712) remains absent.

The FIL 7712 filter can be found at Napa using the vehicle part finder drill down or by searching directly by part number on Napaonline.com/napaprolink.com. The Buyer's Guide on Napaonline.com for this filter has yet to be updated with the list of vehicles it fit and remains empty. It doesn't show up at all on Napafilters.com

Oddly enough Napa's own local in store software does not show this filter at all by vehicle application or by part number and still calls for the 1365 filter(and variations) as being the correct filter for those vehicle application. Yet when calling a Napa distribution center(Genuine Parts Company) they show the FIL 7712 filter by part number, but not yet by application.

Sadly we truely have more info then they and other filter manufactures do at the moment.

Top
#2509309 - 01/29/12 11:12 AM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: bluesubie]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 1315
Loc: Midwest
I wonder if the flow rate of whatever oil filter is used effects the oil pressure seen by the solenoid that triggers the i-Active Valve Lift system on equipped models?
_________________________

'09 Subaru Forester .. (Kendall GT-1 Syn Blend 5W30)
'13 Ducati MTS .......... (Silkolene Pro 4 Ester 15W50)

Top
#2521131 - 01/31/12 07:30 PM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: bluesubie]
flstffxe Offline


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 137
Loc: MN, USA
Napa Gold 7712

Specs:

OD: 63mm
Length: 65mm
Thread: M20x1.5, Roll-formed
Spring type: Coil
Bypass Valve: 23 PSID, Upfront.
Anti Drain Back Valve: Yes, Silicone
Media type: Cellulose
Media Surface area: 288.23cm2
Beta Ratio: 2/20=6/20
Flow Rate: 9 - 11 gpm
Gasket style: Square ring
Oil inlet hole/s area: Eight 6.25mm holes. 245.44mm2.
End caps: Metal
Can side thickness: .33mm









For those curious, The outlet hole in the oil filter mounting stud measures 12.25mm via a gage pin, an area of 117.85881189482959mm2 or ~1.17859cm2.

Top
#2521140 - 01/31/12 07:36 PM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: flstffxe]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 6775
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: flstffxe
Napa Gold 7712

Specs:
Media Surface area: 288.23cm2


That's only 44.7 sq-in. Too small. shocked

Top
#2521160 - 01/31/12 07:47 PM Re: New Wix filter for Subaru Applications - 23 psi's [Re: bluesubie]
flstffxe Offline


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 137
Loc: MN, USA
Media surface area should be 303.4cm2, I copied the wrong set of numbers there.

Still... ~47sq in.

The old OEM Roki was 800cm2/124in2.

The new OEM blue Honeywell is 473.7cm2/73.42in2.


Edited by flstffxe (01/31/12 07:51 PM)

Top
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >