OVERKILL
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vell Rudolph you see, ve play ze tune of ze auto THROUGH ze car stereo system! Zat vay ze driver can hear ze POWA! Vich they could not do because of all the insulation!!! ist brilliant!
Audi A4 vs. BMW 3-series for the DIY'er...?
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Originally Posted By: dparm
It also has a system that plays engine noise through the car stereo. So basically they add 500lbs of sound deadening and then $1500 in electronics to counteract it.
Doesn't it seem ludicrous to you that a company capable of producing a car like the F10 M5 would intentionally do something that stupid?
The F10 5-series shares a platform with the 7-series, which was specifically designed to be quiet (among other things). There would be no way around that without significant (read: expensive) re-engineering. On top of that, the F10 M5 uses turbos, which makes the engine even quieter. BMW M tried all sorts of ducts to bring the engine sound into the cabin but couldn't achieve the effect they wanted, so they added a relatively simple program to the car's audio system instead.
I find it laughable that they had to go that route, too. I think it's one of the biggest strikes against the car, honestly. Let's just try to keep it real.
It also has a system that plays engine noise through the car stereo. So basically they add 500lbs of sound deadening and then $1500 in electronics to counteract it.
Doesn't it seem ludicrous to you that a company capable of producing a car like the F10 M5 would intentionally do something that stupid?
The F10 5-series shares a platform with the 7-series, which was specifically designed to be quiet (among other things). There would be no way around that without significant (read: expensive) re-engineering. On top of that, the F10 M5 uses turbos, which makes the engine even quieter. BMW M tried all sorts of ducts to bring the engine sound into the cabin but couldn't achieve the effect they wanted, so they added a relatively simple program to the car's audio system instead.
I find it laughable that they had to go that route, too. I think it's one of the biggest strikes against the car, honestly. Let's just try to keep it real.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Vut Steven? You are not a fan of ze vater-cooled PCM's ja?
I'm not either, just as I am not a fan of water-cooled alternators as are in some BMWs.
Vut Steven? You are not a fan of ze vater-cooled PCM's ja?
I'm not either, just as I am not a fan of water-cooled alternators as are in some BMWs.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: dparm
That's exactly what Motor Trend said in their CTS-V vs M5 test. The Caddy won but only because it cost $30k less. The performance was the same between the two but the subjective feel was the BMW was far more balanced and well-rounded, and relied less on brute-force to get the same result. The drivers felt more at ease pushing the M5 around a track.
IMO, the new CTS-V is exceptionally refined in everyday driving compared to the M5, IF we're talking about the last generation.
The new M5 is a techno bomb just waiting to explode! It even has water cooled PCM'S. Ludicrous complexity.
Vut Steven? You are not a fan of ze vater-cooled PCM's ja?
Unt ze name ist Stefan to you!
Nein, I can not endorse complexity that simply adds more complexity.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: dparm
That's exactly what Motor Trend said in their CTS-V vs M5 test. The Caddy won but only because it cost $30k less. The performance was the same between the two but the subjective feel was the BMW was far more balanced and well-rounded, and relied less on brute-force to get the same result. The drivers felt more at ease pushing the M5 around a track.
IMO, the new CTS-V is exceptionally refined in everyday driving compared to the M5, IF we're talking about the last generation.
The new M5 is a techno bomb just waiting to explode! It even has water cooled PCM'S. Ludicrous complexity.
Vut Steven? You are not a fan of ze vater-cooled PCM's ja?
Unt ze name ist Stefan to you!
Nein, I can not endorse complexity that simply adds more complexity.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: dparm
That's exactly what Motor Trend said in their CTS-V vs M5 test. The Caddy won but only because it cost $30k less. The performance was the same between the two but the subjective feel was the BMW was far more balanced and well-rounded, and relied less on brute-force to get the same result. The drivers felt more at ease pushing the M5 around a track.
IMO, the new CTS-V is exceptionally refined in everyday driving compared to the M5, IF we're talking about the last generation.
The new M5 is a techno bomb just waiting to explode! It even has water cooled PCM'S. Ludicrous complexity.
Vut Steven? You are not a fan of ze vater-cooled PCM's ja?
Unt ze name ist Stefan to you!
Nein, I can not endorse complexity that simply adds more complexity.
Vut, VUT? ist wunderbar ze water-cooled PCM!
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: dparm
That's exactly what Motor Trend said in their CTS-V vs M5 test. The Caddy won but only because it cost $30k less. The performance was the same between the two but the subjective feel was the BMW was far more balanced and well-rounded, and relied less on brute-force to get the same result. The drivers felt more at ease pushing the M5 around a track.
IMO, the new CTS-V is exceptionally refined in everyday driving compared to the M5, IF we're talking about the last generation.
The new M5 is a techno bomb just waiting to explode! It even has water cooled PCM'S. Ludicrous complexity.
Vut Steven? You are not a fan of ze vater-cooled PCM's ja?
Unt ze name ist Stefan to you!
Nein, I can not endorse complexity that simply adds more complexity.
Vut, VUT? ist wunderbar ze water-cooled PCM!
Having owned 4 BMWs over the last 14 years and an Audi for the last 6, I can say the BMW is mostly easier to work on.
The BMWs don't use timing belts, have much simper suspensions, and are generally assembled in layers that are straight forward if time-consuming.
But the Audi has fewer oil leaks to contend with, no goofy VANOs seals to replace, and have better interiors.
It's worth noting that many of the underhood components are exactly the same. The current e46 and A6 have the same alternator, electrical parts, even the exact same transmissions.
What's weird to me is that I get severely irritated when I have to work on American or Japanese cars. They aren't put together logically! It's like they just threw a bunch of [censored] under the hood and called it a day. Maybe they require less work, but performing the work just isn't satisfying. Under German hoods things are laid out logically, using a consistent language that is predictable.
The BMWs don't use timing belts, have much simper suspensions, and are generally assembled in layers that are straight forward if time-consuming.
But the Audi has fewer oil leaks to contend with, no goofy VANOs seals to replace, and have better interiors.
It's worth noting that many of the underhood components are exactly the same. The current e46 and A6 have the same alternator, electrical parts, even the exact same transmissions.
What's weird to me is that I get severely irritated when I have to work on American or Japanese cars. They aren't put together logically! It's like they just threw a bunch of [censored] under the hood and called it a day. Maybe they require less work, but performing the work just isn't satisfying. Under German hoods things are laid out logically, using a consistent language that is predictable.
Be careful when you hear someone lump all German cars together. My VW was [censored] to work on and parts were impossible to find whereas my BMW has been the simplest vehicle to wrench on I've ever owned and parts are always easy to find. From everything I've heard this still holds true: while BMWs have gotten more complicated just like cars in general Audis are monstrous to work on.
ETA: The V8 powered 530i is even easier to work on than my old 351 powered F150. COP and no smog system or EGR means there's actually more room to work around the M60 than the Windsor. How much this applies to a nearly new BMW I have no idea but take it FWIW.
ETA: The V8 powered 530i is even easier to work on than my old 351 powered F150. COP and no smog system or EGR means there's actually more room to work around the M60 than the Windsor. How much this applies to a nearly new BMW I have no idea but take it FWIW.
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I believe the question has been answered: BMW. I've owned 5 BMW's and do all the work myself. But I have older ones. 2000 M5 is my newest and then the 98 M3. So I'm guessing the newer ones are going to be more complicated...especially if you are looking at the Dual-turbo 335. My thoughts.
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Of course, the biggest DIY being the annual oil changes, they both are very easy to do with an oil vac.
Not quite. He's looking at a 2010 model year. Neither the 3-series nor the A4 has an oil dipstick these days, but at least the A4 has a dipstick tube so that the use of an oil extractor is still possible.
Of course, the biggest DIY being the annual oil changes, they both are very easy to do with an oil vac.
Not quite. He's looking at a 2010 model year. Neither the 3-series nor the A4 has an oil dipstick these days, but at least the A4 has a dipstick tube so that the use of an oil extractor is still possible.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Take for example the cooling system on my 530i. There are a total 7 hoses, the engine driven water pump, an electrical “auxiliary” water pump, an engine driven cooling fan, and an electrical fan. Plus three temperature sensors. And a three-tube heater core. And the radiator of course. And a coolant expansion tank, all of which fail at about the 125,000 to 150,000 mile mark.
You'd be unusually lucky to have a cooling system still intact by 125K miles in a modern BMW. Most start having issues by 80K or so.
Take for example the cooling system on my 530i. There are a total 7 hoses, the engine driven water pump, an electrical “auxiliary” water pump, an engine driven cooling fan, and an electrical fan. Plus three temperature sensors. And a three-tube heater core. And the radiator of course. And a coolant expansion tank, all of which fail at about the 125,000 to 150,000 mile mark.
You'd be unusually lucky to have a cooling system still intact by 125K miles in a modern BMW. Most start having issues by 80K or so.
The good news about both cars is that most of the failure points are widely known, and are very consistent.
So a new owner can do some research and PREVENT the problems that usually create the "nightmare" ownership experience.
We know that BMW expansion tanks, thermostat housings, and such all fail. So just change them before they fail and there will be no problem. It's a proactive philosophy, but it's kept my cars problem-free for a long time.
So a new owner can do some research and PREVENT the problems that usually create the "nightmare" ownership experience.
We know that BMW expansion tanks, thermostat housings, and such all fail. So just change them before they fail and there will be no problem. It's a proactive philosophy, but it's kept my cars problem-free for a long time.
I absolutely love German cars! Always have. But they are like that one girlfriend that you still dream about sometimes. The passion and excitement was fantastic............but my god!! When they threw a fit, it was almost impossible to fix. High maintenence, and expensive to make it last.
In the last 5 years, I've become a Japanese car guy. Always there and very dependable. I like my new girlfriends now.
In the last 5 years, I've become a Japanese car guy. Always there and very dependable. I like my new girlfriends now.
BMW. Audi's at their heart are VW's and VW does some really stupid stuff in terms of having to fix things.
I prefer working on good German cars, once you understand how they think they are cake to repair. BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche are all nice to work on. VW's and Audi's do their own thing and generally are not much better than GM.
I prefer working on good German cars, once you understand how they think they are cake to repair. BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche are all nice to work on. VW's and Audi's do their own thing and generally are not much better than GM.
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Originally Posted By: Foch
After the waranty period it's all me; that's why I'm asking the question....
So far my system has worked well for me.
It makes me wonder why you are considering BMW and Audi instead of Honda or Toyota.
German cars seem to have great engineering for the bits you see and feel and less than great in the places you don't normally see, while the Japanese cars are good but also consistent throughout.
I love BMWs but after 3 I think they are way too complicated and problematic when they get old.
Because they drive better.
An Accord can't hold a candle to a 3 or 5 series if you care about the driving experience.
Originally Posted By: Foch
After the waranty period it's all me; that's why I'm asking the question....
So far my system has worked well for me.
It makes me wonder why you are considering BMW and Audi instead of Honda or Toyota.
German cars seem to have great engineering for the bits you see and feel and less than great in the places you don't normally see, while the Japanese cars are good but also consistent throughout.
I love BMWs but after 3 I think they are way too complicated and problematic when they get old.
Because they drive better.
An Accord can't hold a candle to a 3 or 5 series if you care about the driving experience.
An Audi A3 cant hold a candle to a G37 if you care about the driving experience. You are comparing apples to oranges. I hope this doesn't turn into a Japanese vs European argument. Drive what you like.
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
What's weird to me is that I get severely irritated when I have to work on American or Japanese cars. They aren't put together logically! It's like they just threw a bunch of [censored] under the hood and called it a day. Maybe they require less work, but performing the work just isn't satisfying. Under German hoods things are laid out logically, using a consistent language that is predictable.
No they aren't.
German cars are typically the exact opposite of that.
They'll use 3 different fasteners and two styles (ie: 2 different sizes torx and phillips) on one assembly. Blind assemblies one way fasteners made of ultra brittle plastics...etc... For a nationality that prides itself in manufacturing efficiency, one has to wonder what they were thinking. It took three tools to assemble this simple cover.
Then there is the indecipherable labeling. Is this the component I'm looking for? It's marked with an exclamation point and a schwa. What that's supposed to mean?
That being said, from a mobile electronics installer point of view, BMW and the Porsche 911 are the most "normal" (ie: most like Japanese and US manufacturers except the Porsche's ignition switch is on the wrong side of the steering wheel) Most Mercedes Benzes are fairly easy to run things underhood on. (amplifier power, starter cut...) Just remove the fuse box and pull out the plastic garbage bag full of sponges. You can stick your whole arm through that hole. Volkswagen and Audi tend to be a mess. The previously mentioned 2 different torx and various other fastener assemblies. Everything is wrapped in this greasy black fabric tape that will not stick to anything once unraveled. It will stain everything it touches but it won't stick to anything. And seems like every wire on a VW or Audi is multiplexed now. IIRC, they've had some problems with that with horns and stuff.
Lexus can be complex, but everything seems to be assembled and wired logically. Acura and Infiniti are comparitively easy.
What's weird to me is that I get severely irritated when I have to work on American or Japanese cars. They aren't put together logically! It's like they just threw a bunch of [censored] under the hood and called it a day. Maybe they require less work, but performing the work just isn't satisfying. Under German hoods things are laid out logically, using a consistent language that is predictable.
No they aren't.
German cars are typically the exact opposite of that.
They'll use 3 different fasteners and two styles (ie: 2 different sizes torx and phillips) on one assembly. Blind assemblies one way fasteners made of ultra brittle plastics...etc... For a nationality that prides itself in manufacturing efficiency, one has to wonder what they were thinking. It took three tools to assemble this simple cover.
Then there is the indecipherable labeling. Is this the component I'm looking for? It's marked with an exclamation point and a schwa. What that's supposed to mean?
That being said, from a mobile electronics installer point of view, BMW and the Porsche 911 are the most "normal" (ie: most like Japanese and US manufacturers except the Porsche's ignition switch is on the wrong side of the steering wheel) Most Mercedes Benzes are fairly easy to run things underhood on. (amplifier power, starter cut...) Just remove the fuse box and pull out the plastic garbage bag full of sponges. You can stick your whole arm through that hole. Volkswagen and Audi tend to be a mess. The previously mentioned 2 different torx and various other fastener assemblies. Everything is wrapped in this greasy black fabric tape that will not stick to anything once unraveled. It will stain everything it touches but it won't stick to anything. And seems like every wire on a VW or Audi is multiplexed now. IIRC, they've had some problems with that with horns and stuff.
Lexus can be complex, but everything seems to be assembled and wired logically. Acura and Infiniti are comparitively easy.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
No they aren't.
German cars are typically the exact opposite of that.
Your rant applies to VAG products specifically but not German cars as a whole.
No they aren't.
German cars are typically the exact opposite of that.
Your rant applies to VAG products specifically but not German cars as a whole.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
What's weird to me is that I get severely irritated when I have to work on American or Japanese cars. They aren't put together logically! It's like they just threw a bunch of [censored] under the hood and called it a day. Maybe they require less work, but performing the work just isn't satisfying. Under German hoods things are laid out logically, using a consistent language that is predictable.
No they aren't.
German cars are typically the exact opposite of that.
They'll use 3 different fasteners and two styles (ie: 2 different sizes torx and phillips) on one assembly. Blind assemblies one way fasteners made of ultra brittle plastics...etc... For a nationality that prides itself in manufacturing efficiency, one has to wonder what they were thinking. It took three tools to assemble this simple cover.
Then there is the indecipherable labeling. Is this the component I'm looking for? It's marked with an exclamation point and a schwa. What that's supposed to mean?
That being said, from a mobile electronics installer point of view, BMW and the Porsche 911 are the most "normal" (ie: most like Japanese and US manufacturers except the Porsche's ignition switch is on the wrong side of the steering wheel) Most Mercedes Benzes are fairly easy to run things underhood on. (amplifier power, starter cut...) Just remove the fuse box and pull out the plastic garbage bag full of sponges. You can stick your whole arm through that hole. Volkswagen and Audi tend to be a mess. The previously mentioned 2 different torx and various other fastener assemblies. Everything is wrapped in this greasy black fabric tape that will not stick to anything once unraveled. It will stain everything it touches but it won't stick to anything. And seems like every wire on a VW or Audi is multiplexed now. IIRC, they've had some problems with that with horns and stuff.
Lexus can be complex, but everything seems to be assembled and wired logically. Acura and Infiniti are comparitively easy.
Perhaps you should isolate your complaints to VAG family products? As that's where most your criticisms appear to lie. BMW to work on, at least for me, has been as described by the person you've quoted: very logical with a specific "process" to do anything on the car.
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
What's weird to me is that I get severely irritated when I have to work on American or Japanese cars. They aren't put together logically! It's like they just threw a bunch of [censored] under the hood and called it a day. Maybe they require less work, but performing the work just isn't satisfying. Under German hoods things are laid out logically, using a consistent language that is predictable.
No they aren't.
German cars are typically the exact opposite of that.
They'll use 3 different fasteners and two styles (ie: 2 different sizes torx and phillips) on one assembly. Blind assemblies one way fasteners made of ultra brittle plastics...etc... For a nationality that prides itself in manufacturing efficiency, one has to wonder what they were thinking. It took three tools to assemble this simple cover.
Then there is the indecipherable labeling. Is this the component I'm looking for? It's marked with an exclamation point and a schwa. What that's supposed to mean?
That being said, from a mobile electronics installer point of view, BMW and the Porsche 911 are the most "normal" (ie: most like Japanese and US manufacturers except the Porsche's ignition switch is on the wrong side of the steering wheel) Most Mercedes Benzes are fairly easy to run things underhood on. (amplifier power, starter cut...) Just remove the fuse box and pull out the plastic garbage bag full of sponges. You can stick your whole arm through that hole. Volkswagen and Audi tend to be a mess. The previously mentioned 2 different torx and various other fastener assemblies. Everything is wrapped in this greasy black fabric tape that will not stick to anything once unraveled. It will stain everything it touches but it won't stick to anything. And seems like every wire on a VW or Audi is multiplexed now. IIRC, they've had some problems with that with horns and stuff.
Lexus can be complex, but everything seems to be assembled and wired logically. Acura and Infiniti are comparitively easy.
Perhaps you should isolate your complaints to VAG family products? As that's where most your criticisms appear to lie. BMW to work on, at least for me, has been as described by the person you've quoted: very logical with a specific "process" to do anything on the car.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Perhaps you should isolate your complaints to VAG family products? As that's where most your criticisms appear to lie. BMW to work on, at least for me, has been as described by the person you've quoted: very logical with a specific "process" to do anything on the car.
No, BMW does use some unnaturally brittle plastics, blind fasteners, indecipherable symbols, and that wretched black cloth tape too, but once you get past the covers the wiring is logical.
I don't even know what kind of plastic it is. Maybe polystyrene. A similar cover would normally be polypropylene on a US or Japanese made car and you can snap it and unsnap it many times.
Perhaps you should isolate your complaints to VAG family products? As that's where most your criticisms appear to lie. BMW to work on, at least for me, has been as described by the person you've quoted: very logical with a specific "process" to do anything on the car.
No, BMW does use some unnaturally brittle plastics, blind fasteners, indecipherable symbols, and that wretched black cloth tape too, but once you get past the covers the wiring is logical.
I don't even know what kind of plastic it is. Maybe polystyrene. A similar cover would normally be polypropylene on a US or Japanese made car and you can snap it and unsnap it many times.
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