Motor Oil Selection for 97 BMW M3

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Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Don't forget M1 Turbo Diesel Truck. That's a 5w40.


That was for the longest time just re-badged Delvac 1 though.... and is also an HDEO. It wasn't until CJ-4 came out that the formulas differed.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Don't forget M1 Turbo Diesel Truck. That's a 5w40.


That was for the longest time just re-badged Delvac 1 though.... and is also an HDEO. It wasn't until CJ-4 came out that the formulas differed.


Ithink the best Mobil 1 oil for his car would be 15W-50!
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Its actually a 10W-50.
 
nleksan, welcome to BITOG.
With such a long post you should have started your own thread.

Following the BMW OCM OCI can lead to sludge formation.
My Bimmer has had a steady diet of light OTC oil it's entire life but with short OCIs not exceeding 7,000 miles.
My engine is sludge free.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
nleksan, welcome to BITOG.
With such a long post you should have started your own thread.

Following the BMW OCM OCI can lead to sludge formation.
My Bimmer has had a steady diet of light OTC oil it's entire life but with short OCIs not exceeding 7,000 miles.
My engine is sludge free.


7000 miles is about as long an OCI as i cna stomach and i like CATERHAM's analysis of things.
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I too would go 5k-7k on my BMW, depending on how black my oil got. (I know i know thats not "scientific" but if i used RP it would black up super quick, and id probably go ~5k..)

Im glad we have anothere Royal Purple believer.
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Id use RP SN 0E-40 winter, Redline 5W-50 summer. Or, one or the other all the time........ or one in summer, one winter.

RP 0W-40 is the only one of those i can find in a store, so, maybe that one. 5k-7k OCIs.
 
Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Id use RP SN 0E-40 winter, Redline 5W-50 summer.

The proper way to choose the correct oil viscosity is to intall an oil pressure gauge and select your oil viscosity accordingly.
Red Line recommends their 5W-30 for most I6 Bimmers including the E46 M3 and for good reason. With a HTHSV of 3.8cP in a VII free oil that's all you ever need. Their 0W-40 would be a good choice as well for it's cold start performance.

RL 5W-50 with it's HTHSV of 5.9cP is an insanely heavy oil (much heavier than TWS 10W-60) that should only be used for blending purposes. Running this oil straight even on the track, you will never be able to use maximum rev's without the oil pump going into by-pass mode and that is not a good thing.
 
Thanks for the welcome
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I'm glad to finally be an "actual member" here, as opposed to just leeching knowledge off of all of you
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First, my mistake: I did mean Mobil1 0w40, the "Euro Blend" stuff, I was just kind of in "auto-type mode" and continued with the "5wxx". My bad. I have not used the Delvac 5w40, although from what I have heard (from here, multiple BMW forums, and multiple friends who are mechanics), it is a fantastic CLEANING oil.


Caterham:
Yes, I was thinking about splitting it into two separate threads, one in the "New Members" or whatever section, and keeping the other half here, but I was typing this in my free time at work and by the time I'd realized how long it had grown, I didn't have the time to copy and paste (I finished it up as I was leaving). I will keep this in mind, however, and be sure to do so in the future. Thank you
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45ACP:
I use the 5w40 for a couple of reasons... With the Royal Purple, not only is it their "Euro Blend", it is also the only weight of theirs (aside from 5w30) that I can still get in the "old" Synerlac bottles, meaning the higher ppm ZDDP. Also, while I have run 0w40 before, I find that my engine likes the 5w40 better... If you have a BMW, you are likely familiar with the ticking sound at idle; 0wxx oils exacerbate that sound, while 5wxx oils reduce the lifter ticking. I have also noticed that my VANOS kicks in about 150-250rpm SOONER with the 5w oils than it does with the 0w oils; why that is, I cannot say. I have had my VANOS completely rebuilt with the entire upgrade kit that was available a few years back, and while it runs like brand-new all the time, it runs better with some oils than with others.
Also, because my 328Ci is supercharged (12psi currently, stock CR, but I do have Carillo Rods, Titanium Valve Springs/Retainers, +2/+4mm diameter intake/exhaust valves, etc) with a Lysholm supercharger, it is using the engine's oil supply. I have had MANY conversations with ESS (who made the S/C kit; no one else has a Stg2+ 328
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), and it is what they recommend as healthiest for both the engine and the supercharger. It is kind of a "balanced" weight. I might be changing what oil I use when I up the boost to >15psi, but for now I am more than satisfied
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I would not say that I am a "Royal Purple Lover" in the fanatical kind of way, only that I think they make very good quality products that many people seem to think are "garbage" because they aren't INSANELY BETTER than the competition...
I have done back-to-back dyno runs in my car, when it was naturally-aspirated (when I was getting it re-tuned, about the 10th or 11th time lol, after replacing my exhaust mid-pipes from the UUC/Corsa TSE3 to the Eisenmann Race + Cat Delete "Test Pipe"). They were done with the same operator, same day, same dyno, which is the same dyno I've always used (Mustang). I do NOT have the dyno sheets available, as they are in my car which is currently in storage for the winter, but I do have my Excel sheet
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(I have an Excel sheet for just about everything done on this car... and it's a lot lol).
Between runs 3 and 4 I decided to change my oil, as it had the BMW OE oil in it (and OE filter), but I had just gotten some of the 5w30 RP oil and a K&N Oil Filter (10qts+2filters = $68 on sale!) and wanted to test their "more power" claims. I didn't see a better time to do it, as my car was going be having the supercharger installed about two months from that day and I consider run-to-run variations to be much higher on F/I cars than N/A cars (from what I've seen).

Dyno Run "New Exhaust - Mid-pipe+cat-delete"
Car: 2000 E46 328Ci, BMW (Coupe, RWD - Manual Transmission)
Operator: xxxx
Temperature: 69*F(Baseline) 70*F(After)
Quantity: 6 Baseline Runs, 6 "After" Runs
Gear: 4th Gear, Manual Transmission, 3.23:1 Limited-Slip Differential
RUN 1: 231.9rwhp/225.7rwtq
RUN 2: 232.6rwhp/226.4rwtq
RUN 3: 232.7rwhp/226.6rwtq
*Change Oil to Royal Purple 5w30 and K&N Oil Filter*
RUN 4: 235.3rwhp/228.2rwtq
RUN 5: 235.5rwhp/228.5rwtq
RUN 6: 235.6rwhp/228.4rwtq
*Change Exhaust Mid Pipe, Remove Fabspeed 100cell Metallic Cat*
RUN 7: 242.8rwhp/233.7rwtq
RUN 8: 243.6rwhp/234.2rwtq
RUN 9: 244.3rwhp/234.7rwtq
RUN10: 245.1rwhp/234.9rwtq
RUN11: 244.9rwhp/234.9rwtq
RUN12: 244.8rwhp/234.8rwtq

Car has 2 BIG fans blowing on the front, hood down, with a third smaller fan directly in front of the radiator blowing at 80mph. As you can see from the numbers, it DID start to heat soak a wee bit, but the Fluidyne Radiator (along with Samco hoses, Stewart Pump, and the fact that every part related to cooling that wasn't the engine block had been upgraded significantly) kept it at a not-too-bad level
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Redline has proven itself to me. In the engine, it is fantastic, and after 5k it comes out like it went in. In the transmission, it cleaned up my slightly-sticky 1st/3rd gear synchro's which have never been a problem again (and it's a problem typically exacerbated by a SSK and a heavier Selecting Rod). The Quaife Limited-Slip LOVES the Redline fluid, and while I change it frequently (every 10-12 track days, so usually once every 6 months, which is about 8-10k miles), the gears show ZERO signs of unwanted/abnormal wear, and in fact (according to my friend who installed it, a BMW Master Mechanic) it looks better than most M3's do at half the miles (diff now has ~25k on it?).


Wow, sorry for rambling again.

Also, thanks again for having me here!
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Sincerely,
nleksan
 
Originally Posted By: nleksan
while I have run 0w40 before, I find that my engine likes the 5w40 better... If you have a BMW, you are likely familiar with the ticking sound at idle; 0wxx oils exacerbate that sound, while 5wxx oils reduce the lifter ticking. I have also noticed that my VANOS kicks in about 150-250rpm SOONER with the 5w oils than it does with the 0w oils; why that is, I cannot say.


On this, I noticed that my engine was significantly quieter on M1 0w40 than it was on the BMW 5w30. It doesn't tick however, though I know the sound you speak of, as I have heard it on other M5's....... They both had 10w60 in them
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Thanks for all of that nleksan...your post kind of makes me want to seek out RL or RP motor oil instead of being lazy and content with OTC oils like M1. However, I'm not sure how much benefit it would be to me, since I don't drive this car very much, never track it, and pretty much drive like a granny now (shameful, I know, but I've put in my fair share driving like a nut in the past and I've just outgrown that now). No speeding tickets in 5 years has been a welcomed side-effect compared to the 2-3/year I had in the past...

Anyway, I think it might be somewhat wasteful for me to spend 2x as much on boutique oils in my case. I typically run oil for 2-3k miles every 6 months (change oil in spring, drive 2-3k miles in summer never really exceeding 4k rpms and primarily cruising on the freeway at 80, and then drain oil in the fall, put in fresh oil and filter and store it for 6 months. rinse and repeat.) The only reason I would consider RP or RL would be to clean out sludge. Then again, the engine does seem to run better with the M1 0W-40 I just put in vs. any previous M1 5W-30/10W-30/10W-40 that I used to run, so maybe I'll give the RL or RP a shot and see if it does even better. I havn't seen either RP or RL for sale in any store locally though, so I'll have to order it online I think, which has been a big deterrent to me trying it in the past.

I'm due for a valve cover gasket and spark plugs soon so I'll get a chance to see the sludge/varnish buildup, which I bet is pretty bad in my case, since I know the previous owner (from 1997-2003 and 0-105k miles) was using BMW oil and having the dealer change it every 10-15k miles. Since I've had it though, I've run either M1 5W-30, 10W-30, or 10W-40, sometimes high-mileage versions, and changed it at least every 6mo/3k miles with new Mahle filters, so hopefully that's kept it pretty clean. We'll soon see I suppose...

Originally Posted By: nleksan
I use Redline D4 ATF in all of my transmissions, change it every 15-30k, and their 75w90 in non-limited-slip differentials (I use a special fluid I get direct from Quaife for my LSD).

That's interesting. I know BMW specs ATF "lifetime" fluid in the 5MT of my M3, but a BMW mechanic friend of mine told me to use a 50/50 mix of Redline 75W-90 and dino 80W-90, so that's what I've always used. ATF always seemed too thin to me for a MT, so I happily went along with his suggestion to use regular gear oil viscosities. (I'm finding more and more that professional mechanics might know how to turn a wrench but arn't very well educated on proper lubricants...) Never really had a problem with the transmission so I've never really looked into alternatives. Well, that's not entirely true. At temps below 40F (which I hardly ever drive the car in), I'll get a bit of grind from the 4th gear synchros if I try to shift into 4th in the first 5-10 minutes of driving, but I always attributed that to the 80W-90 dino in the mix becoming too thick at those temps, as it goes away once the car warms up and never exhibits that issue during the warmer months. I've gotten into the habit of either warming the car up or just skipping 4th gear on the rare occasions that I drive the car when it's that cold out.

Anyway, if you're telling me I should use Redline D4 ATF in the new E46 M3 6MT Getrag that I'm putting in sometime over the next few months, then you've preemptively answered a question I was planning to ask next spring.

Also, although you use the special Quaife fluid in your Quaife LSD, would you recommend RL 75W90 Limited Slip for a stock E36 M3 LSD? In the past I've always used dino 80W-90 limited slip gear oil with a 3 year/15k mile OCI.

Thanks again for sharing your expertise.
 
I really appreciate nleksan because he basically puts into perspective how RP has worked very well for him as has Redline, and why he prefers it to other oils. So far, NOBODY ELSE has been able to RATIONALLY do this and only knows how to TRASH and BASH RP, while PRAISING MOBIL 1, though M1 is a GOOD OIL. It is not FOR EVERYONE OR EVERYTHING.

Thank you.
 
Originally Posted By: 45ACP
I really appreciate nleksan because he basically puts into perspective how RP has worked very well for him as has Redline, and why he prefers it to other oils. So far, NOBODY ELSE has been able to RATIONALLY do this and only knows how to TRASH and BASH RP, while PRAISING MOBIL 1, though M1 is a GOOD OIL. It is not FOR EVERYONE OR EVERYTHING.

Thank you.


45ACP:

You've obviously missed the posts by Ben99GT about his experience with Redline, as his experience was what prompted me to try it personally.

What nleksan has done is posted some very nice, very detailed information about his experience, and it is appreciated! But to say that he is the only one to have done this is simply incorrect. There have been many, MANY people on this board who have detailed their experience with various types of oils in various applications that haven't bashed other products in the process. I've done so with Mobil 1 in my 302's for example. Doug Hillary has posted extensively in the past about his experience with various lubes in high performance applications.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: 45ACP
I really appreciate nleksan because he basically puts into perspective how RP has worked very well for him as has Redline, and why he prefers it to other oils. So far, NOBODY ELSE has been able to RATIONALLY do this and only knows how to TRASH and BASH RP, while PRAISING MOBIL 1, though M1 is a GOOD OIL. It is not FOR EVERYONE OR EVERYTHING.

Thank you.


45ACP:

You've obviously missed the posts by Ben99GT about his experience with Redline, as his experience was what prompted me to try it personally.

What nleksan has done is posted some very nice, very detailed information about his experience, and it is appreciated! But to say that he is the only one to have done this is simply incorrect. There have been many, MANY people on this board who have detailed their experience with various types of oils in various applications that haven't bashed other products in the process. I've done so with Mobil 1 in my 302's for example. Doug Hillary has posted extensively in the past about his experience with various lubes in high performance applications.


Yes, it appears i missed that. Thanks though!
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Redline is something id try...
I see one AMSOIL i like and its a 0W-20 for car engines where i can use as thin an oil as i wish. Otherwise my first thought is RL 0W-20, the mislabeled light 30 AFAIAC, for most things..
I also think 0W first before 5W, its been awhile and yes lifter tick exists i want to give 0W a shot, seems it should help not hurt there...
and RP i can walk into select stores and buy 0W-40 (probably the Synerlec stuff, though id get the stuff without it too, SN) if i wanted and had the $$$ and car that could maybe see improvement with it.
 
45ACP: Thank you, it's nice to be appreciated!
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I am a psychopharmacology student (i.e. drugs that work on the brain and/or have a psychoactive effect), which is a branch of pharmacology, or more or less a VERY specific subset of biochemical engineering. Thus, my very-much Science-oriented brain (plus the insane amount of time work/school takes up) has me looking at just about everything from a very "scientific" or "evidence-based" perspective. Thus, I have cataloged every single change made to my car in a plethora of Excel spreadsheets, from oil and other fluid changes (and all other maintenance items), to appearance modifications, to lighting modifications, to suspension modifications (keeping track of camber/caster/toe and all other suspension geometry, as well as what settings the coilovers/sways/camber-arms/etc are at and for how long, etc), to power modifications (what it is, when installed, subjective notes, objective comparison, temperature/oil-pressure/etc changes, advertised power increases, actual power increases, etc), to dyno charts (I have spent more money on dyno sessions than I would care to admit), to who installed what part and how long it took, to miles-per-gallon for every tank, to track/auto-x lap times (new modifications since last run, mileage then/now, time of day, temp/humidity, course layout, exact track distance in miles/km/yards/meters, etc), and so on and so on...
One might say I am little bit "anal" about these things... Just a wee bit.

Anyway, that was what led me to be able to give you all my actual, first-hand experiences with the aforementioned oils from both a subjective and objective point of view.


Also, yes, I would use Redline D4 ATF in an E46 M3 6spd Getrag transmission, without hesitation. It is indeed thinner (lower viscosity) than typical "gear oils", but having had both my original 5spd and my newer 6spd transmissions opened-up (as in, completely opened; the latter in order to essentially "regrind" the gears), my tech guy said that they were both essentially spotless. It is also beneficial for any cars that see cold (below 50*F) weather. There is a NOTICEABLE improvement in shift-feel and reduction in the infamous "notchiness" associated with BMW transmissions, and that is with, in my case, heavy-duty UUC Black transmission mounts (with the metal "cups"), the UUC EVO3 short shift kit, and the UUC Dual-Sheer Selector Rod (attaches to the selector on both sides, essentially "clamping it", rather than just relying on a bolt to hold it to one side; this is on both ends).

The Redline 75w90 is what I've used since day one in all of my BMW's, and is what I used up until I got the LSD in my 328Ci. It is phenomenal, and I would trust it to go well over 60k miles without issue. I'm not sure what the Quaife fluid is, exactly, but it's likely a re-branded Redline/RP/Motul/LM/etc product that has their specific Limited-Slip additives. It is FAR too expensive ($45/qt) for me to bother with a VOA, but I am pleased with it.

On another topic, as your car is getting "up there" in miles (150k on an M), I would be more than happy to help you in regards to finding the best products at the cheapest prices (i.e. all aluminum radiator to replace your plastic-y one, Stewart Water Pump, suspension components, etc) or even straight-up "upgrades" if you'd like! I've worked with a number of online dealers for years, and they would be more than happy to help a fellow BMW enthusiast out!
On that note, regardless of whether you are considering any modifications or upgrades or whatever, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you buy a "BMW Motorsports X-Brace" for your car... It connects various suspension pieces under your front subframe, so not only does it increase strength of said pieces, you get a SIGNIFICANTLY sharper-handling car! It makes steering input more responsive, the car is flatter during cornering, and it is all-around more stable. It is the first upgrade I recommend to ANY E36 owner, M or non-M; it is that good! Part goes for around ~$240-280.


Good luck, hope I helped!
Sincerely,
nleksan
 
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Also, yes, I would use Redline D4 ATF in an E46 M3 6spd Getrag transmission, without hesitation.
Cool, will do.
Originally Posted By: nleksan
There is a NOTICEABLE improvement in shift-feel and reduction in the infamous "notchiness" associated with BMW transmissions, and that is with, in my case, heavy-duty UUC Black transmission mounts (with the metal "cups"), the UUC EVO3 short shift kit, and the UUC Dual-Sheer Selector Rod (attaches to the selector on both sides, essentially "clamping it", rather than just relying on a bolt to hold it to one side; this is on both ends).
Yeah, I have the UUC black trans mounts and aluminum "enforcers" on my 5MT, they are great. I was also planning on getting the UUC Dual-Sheer Selector Rod for the 6MT Getrag, but probably pairing that with the stock (Euro-spec) 6-speed shifter.
Originally Posted By: nleksan
The Redline 75w90 is what I've used since day one in all of my BMW's, and is what I used up until I got the LSD in my 328Ci. It is phenomenal, and I would trust it to go well over 60k miles without issue.
I've seen it at Advance Auto for like $20/quart IIRC. I also think it said you can use it in LSDs with no limited slip additive needed. Would it also be good for open diffs that spec 80W-90, or my old Toyota 5MT and transfer case that specs 75W-90 GL-4? Talk about "notchiness"...shifting that Toyota is what I imagine driving a Mack truck is like.
Originally Posted By: nleksan
On another topic, as your car is getting "up there" in miles (150k on an M), I would be more than happy to help you in regards to finding the best products at the cheapest prices (i.e. all aluminum radiator to replace your plastic-y one, Stewart Water Pump, suspension components, etc)
Yeah, it is time for some work, but mostly suspension/steering. I have serviced the cooling system about 10k miles ago with a Bosch water pump and OEM o-ring (Bosch has composite impellar, not plastic), OEM t-stat and o-ring, OEM plastic t-stat housing and gaskets (aftermarket aluminum one by MTC corroded and leaked, so I went back to OEM plastic), OEM radiator (was replaced 6 years and 30k ago, so maybe I could look into installing this "all-aluminum" one you speak of at the next coolant flush), new Behr fan clutch, OEM radiator and bypass hoses, OEM idler pulleys and drive belt tensioner, and OEM continental drive belts. Annoyingly, I still have a lot of squeaks and noise coming from the front of the engine when idling, which I had hoped would be resolved by replacing the idler pullies, belt tensioners, and belts, but no dice. I'll have to dig into it further.

I was planning on installing new inner/outer tie rods on the rack this spring, and replacing all the coil springs and shocks/struts to improve the handling, since all that stuff is worn, and my springs have compressed over 1" in some places (right rear for sure).
Originally Posted By: nleksan
I've worked with a number of online dealers for years, and they would be more than happy to help a fellow BMW enthusiast out!
I usually order from Tisher BMW of Silver Spring MD (getbmwparts.com). Their prices are decent, but maybe you have a better hook-up?
Originally Posted By: nleksan
On that note, regardless of whether you are considering any modifications or upgrades or whatever, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you buy a "BMW Motorsports X-Brace" for your car...
Sounds good...is that something I can get directly from a BMW dealer or is there an aftermarket X-brace you would recommend?
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Good luck, hope I helped!
You already know you did. Thanks a lot for everything!
 
1. I think you'll enjoy the D4 ATF
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2. UUC makes some of, if not THE MOST, over-engineered aftermarket products I have EVER seen, for any car, for any part or purpose... Their DSSR (and tranny mounts) are incredible... I feel 100% confident shifting from 3rd to 2nd (so about 4100rpm to 6500rpm, say) during a 1.0g turn, and KNOWING that I am not missing my shift. There is ZERO travel, no matter how hard I push it; the transmission is in there SOLID (the Group N engine mounts and solid Diff/Subframe mounts help, but the tranny mounts do the most), and the Dual-Sheer Rod, when you put it next to the OEM one, looks like a life-size Hulk sitting next to a 5'6" 100lb fashion model... which would you want to rely on for strength?

3. Honestly, IDK about using it in LSD's, because I've simply used what the LSD mfgr has suggested is best (and as much as those gears cost, I want to keep the warranty they surprisingly give me), but I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a Toyota open diff that calls for 80w90. If anything, the higher VI should make it run better in the cold, while keeping it lubed in the heat (this is Redline we're talking about...
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)
You can check on their website for specific applications, but I would use probably a fifty-fifty mix of the 75w90 and Redline MTL/MTF.

4. Sounds like you are on top of things with the maintenance! I was only bringing it up because so few people realize how badly these cars need proper maintenance, and that they need either OEM or high quality aftermarket parts if they're gonna last. I was going to suggest a Stewart Water Pump paired with UUC Underdrive Pulleys, a new OE Tensioner, ECS Water Pump Pulley, Samco Sport Radiator Hoses, Mishimoto/Fluidyne All-Aluminum radiator, Aluminum T-Stat, Brass Bleeder valve, new Coolant Expansion Tank, Caps, etc.
*Note: MTC is not a company that I would recommend to anyone except people I don't like... they are low-grade OE-wannabe parts, they are not OEM-approved
Regarding the tie-rods, I'd wait til you do the other stuff in the spring; you'll save money on labor and on alignments... they won't harm anything if you don't drive it much in the winter.
I can give you some recommendations regarding suspension components, either here or via PM; I've personally used various shocks/struts (various brands, I mean), as well as various coil-over kits (plus all of the little pieces you wouldn't think of, like rear shock mounts, etc). Let my experience with the "wrong stuff" allow you to buy the "right stuff" the first time around
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5. Tischer is good and is held in high regard, perhaps the highest as far as Dealerships go. I tend to order OEM parts from either ECS or PelicanParts, but I mostly order aftermarket so I have 5-6 sites I use primarily (knock it down to 3-4 if your car will never be F/I). I would be happy to help you find the cheapest prices for the best parts. I don't work for any of them; I just get satisfaction knowing there is one more well-cared-for and loved E36 out there somewhere
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(ugh, most of them have become destroyed by dumb@ss teenagers who thing a $4k (non-M) BMW will require equal maintenance to a $4k Civic... so they "rice" ("sauerkraut"?) it up, then let it fall apart... Angers me to no end...

6. It is actually an OEM part, originally part of the "E36 M3 LTW Kit", the stuff that came in the trunk (rear wing risers, front spoiler, baffled oil pan, etc) that, if used, voided the warranty. On one site that I have done a bunch of business with, it (the OE Piece) goes for $194.99 with all mounting hardware included. I will be PM'ing you the link.

7. Well, glad that I could help more, and I hope that I continue to
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from what I've seen, BMW owners aren't SUPER-common around here, so I guess we all gotta stick together, keep the VW/Audi/MBenz people from sneaking up and attacking us with their technologically-inferior yet more-expensive "cars"..
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Hope this helps some more.
Sincerely,
nleksan




*PS: I'm kidding, VW/Audi/MB people... although I do think most Audi cars are just Volkswagens that have gotten all prettied-up for the prom :p
Oh, and Mercedes-Benz is STILL unable to make power without super-sizing their blocks to 6L+ or keeping them around 5L but adding tons of forced induction... :p BMW may make the X3 (gag), but at least they don't make a minivan...








*PPS: I'm not flaming, I'm teasing... Everyone knows Euro car guys get super-brand-loyal and red-with-rage if someone insults "their" marque...
 
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