Engine rattle at startup - Toyota REFUSES to fix
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Originally Posted By: 2Fast4U
If it normal then a new one on the lot does it as well, right?
Not necessarily. If it's normal, all the one's on the lot would do it.
If it normal then a new one on the lot does it as well, right?
Not necessarily. If it's normal, all the one's on the lot would do it.
VVT,
Sorry to hear about your dissatisfaction with your brand NEW car....I imagine that must be very frustrating not being completely happy after an expensive purchase.
When I listen to your video of your engine starting up it sounds like standard "engine rattle" until engine oil hits the head...although I'm not sure what the typical noises are from this engine. Some others on here have said it sounds terrible but perhaps those members aren't used to what an engine sounds like when you start it up here in the north country? That IS what a typical engine sounds like starting it up in the cold mornings up here in NY. It should quiet down once the oil pressure starts up after a few seconds.
I agree with others about starting up a brand new engine on the lot and comparing.
I hope if this is an issue that Toyota does the right thing and makes you a satisfied customer...because no new car buyer should feel they are stuck with a lemon. I wish you luck in getting satisfaction from them.
AFAIK, any dealership that agrees something is a warranty issue gets reimbursed for repairs and parts from the car company headquarters so I don't believe they would have a reason to deny legitimate concerns. I believe most dealerships love warranty work. However, this is not to say that the car company stresses to dealerships that they must be truthful in the warranty work they perform....because they do. Toyota's response shows they are attempting to satisfy your needs...by seeing if the TSB applies to your particular engine. This shows me that they are trying to do the right thing.
My question to you would be, even if they tell you over and over and Toyota confirms that this is "normal" behavior would you still be unsatisfied? If that is the case I think trading it in would be the only option. I highly doubt Toyota would provide you with a new vehicle. IMHO if the dealership would offer to give you a fair trade or buyback for slightly less than you paid I'd think that would be very fair of them.
Sorry to hear about your dissatisfaction with your brand NEW car....I imagine that must be very frustrating not being completely happy after an expensive purchase.
When I listen to your video of your engine starting up it sounds like standard "engine rattle" until engine oil hits the head...although I'm not sure what the typical noises are from this engine. Some others on here have said it sounds terrible but perhaps those members aren't used to what an engine sounds like when you start it up here in the north country? That IS what a typical engine sounds like starting it up in the cold mornings up here in NY. It should quiet down once the oil pressure starts up after a few seconds.
I agree with others about starting up a brand new engine on the lot and comparing.
I hope if this is an issue that Toyota does the right thing and makes you a satisfied customer...because no new car buyer should feel they are stuck with a lemon. I wish you luck in getting satisfaction from them.
AFAIK, any dealership that agrees something is a warranty issue gets reimbursed for repairs and parts from the car company headquarters so I don't believe they would have a reason to deny legitimate concerns. I believe most dealerships love warranty work. However, this is not to say that the car company stresses to dealerships that they must be truthful in the warranty work they perform....because they do. Toyota's response shows they are attempting to satisfy your needs...by seeing if the TSB applies to your particular engine. This shows me that they are trying to do the right thing.
My question to you would be, even if they tell you over and over and Toyota confirms that this is "normal" behavior would you still be unsatisfied? If that is the case I think trading it in would be the only option. I highly doubt Toyota would provide you with a new vehicle. IMHO if the dealership would offer to give you a fair trade or buyback for slightly less than you paid I'd think that would be very fair of them.
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I don't like saying this but...If they refuse to repair it run the numbers on the loss in a trade in vs the repair cost...Depending on what you see maybe you should just bite the bullet and pay to have it repaired. There are a lot of regular mechanics that can replace the actuator/controller/cam gear cheaply. You could order one, go somewhere, have it installed. May be better than going through all this.
1. Dealer's have nothing to do with buybacks. It's all the manufacturer.
2. It doesn't do the dealer any good to agree with you that the issue is warranty related. The manufacturer has to agree with the dealer that the issue is warranty related for the dealer to get reimbursed. Almost all dealers have a list of repairs that the manufacturer didn't agree with, and they will never get reimbursed for.
3. Once the manufacturer has told the dealer they aren't going to pay for a specific repair, that's it. The dealer can do the repair if they want to, but they're not going to get paid for it. Dealer's don't stay in business long by doing this.
2. It doesn't do the dealer any good to agree with you that the issue is warranty related. The manufacturer has to agree with the dealer that the issue is warranty related for the dealer to get reimbursed. Almost all dealers have a list of repairs that the manufacturer didn't agree with, and they will never get reimbursed for.
3. Once the manufacturer has told the dealer they aren't going to pay for a specific repair, that's it. The dealer can do the repair if they want to, but they're not going to get paid for it. Dealer's don't stay in business long by doing this.
GMFan: The typical noise for this engine does not include the knocking that you hear for approximately one second when the engine first turns over. The issue is that when Southeast Toyota sent a representative to look at my car some months ago, he did not properly diagnose the vehicle. This meant that taking the car in for future service visits and phone calls to Scion got me nowhere since it was on-record that the car was "fine," and no one was willing to do any further diagnostic work on the car. The SE Toyota rep. simply listened to the car, said that the VVTI mechanism was different on the tC and therefore unaffected by the design flaw that affects every other 1AR-FE/2AR-FE/etc. vehicle, and thus since there was no TSB on my make & model, Toyota considered my car's behavior to be normal. That was basically an excuse to avoid doing a real mechanic's job in properly diagnosing an issue since a TSB is only supposed to serve as a guide for known issues.
I had the dealer I'm currently working with run the numbers on trading my tC in for a 2012 Camry, and they came back with something like a $13k trade-in value, which is absolutely pathetic. It also doesn't help that the sheet they showed me was supposedly from KBB, and yet when I looked on KBB, even selecting the lowest marks for vehicle condition (not "excellent" which is how I would describe a new car under warranty like mine) yielded a higher trade-in value. I'm fairly certain they manipulated the figure. In any case, if I were offered a buyback price comparable to what the lemon law statute provides, I would take it as I would not be losing much at all. It's taken almost a year of fighting on and off through various channels to get Toyota to acknowledge this issue, so the fact that Toyota is "doing the right thing" is only enough to pacify me on this issue, not enough to regain my trust as a loyal customer.
LeakySeals: I'll get rid of the car before I even consider paying for something that should be covered under the manufacturer's warranty. Otherwise what is it good for? The repair would cost me ~$500 out of pocket.
MrCritical: #3 is my issue. SE Toyota's misdiagnosis has put me in this situation.
I had the dealer I'm currently working with run the numbers on trading my tC in for a 2012 Camry, and they came back with something like a $13k trade-in value, which is absolutely pathetic. It also doesn't help that the sheet they showed me was supposedly from KBB, and yet when I looked on KBB, even selecting the lowest marks for vehicle condition (not "excellent" which is how I would describe a new car under warranty like mine) yielded a higher trade-in value. I'm fairly certain they manipulated the figure. In any case, if I were offered a buyback price comparable to what the lemon law statute provides, I would take it as I would not be losing much at all. It's taken almost a year of fighting on and off through various channels to get Toyota to acknowledge this issue, so the fact that Toyota is "doing the right thing" is only enough to pacify me on this issue, not enough to regain my trust as a loyal customer.
LeakySeals: I'll get rid of the car before I even consider paying for something that should be covered under the manufacturer's warranty. Otherwise what is it good for? The repair would cost me ~$500 out of pocket.
MrCritical: #3 is my issue. SE Toyota's misdiagnosis has put me in this situation.
VVT:
It is interesting you mention the South East Toyota Regional zone ..I have heard that the reps for this zone are not the most qualified or professional compared to other regions. I wonder why this is?
I do believe that the SE Toyota zone is the ONLY one that has a NON MANUFACTURER SALES/DISTRIBUTORSHIP. All other areas of the country are controlled by TMUSA.
It is interesting you mention the South East Toyota Regional zone ..I have heard that the reps for this zone are not the most qualified or professional compared to other regions. I wonder why this is?
I do believe that the SE Toyota zone is the ONLY one that has a NON MANUFACTURER SALES/DISTRIBUTORSHIP. All other areas of the country are controlled by TMUSA.
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Well I just got the royal runaround from Toyota. After all those assurances that finally my case was being handled, I spoke with the dealership today who informed me that the district rep. had told them not to attempt any repairs without him first meeting with me sometime in January. Not only was I lied to in that I was told Toyota would coordinate with the dealership to have the car repaired yesterday, I also had my time and gas wasted driving the 30+ minutes each way to and from the dealership. I don't think I can buy another Toyota in good faith with all the [censored] they're putting me through.
I was afraid of that.
I'd file my BBB claim. File against the selling dealer, and the Toyota sales zone you are in, unless you have moved since the purchase.
You might also consider plastering the car with lemon peel off vinyl graphics with the dealer and Toyota's name on it (if you roll that way. I do.) I'd let them know in advance, in case the dealership wants to fix the car themselves and eat the repair costs.
At this point, unless the dealer wants to pay for the repairs out of pocket, I'd tell Toyota that you won't settle for anything less than every cent of your money back. They had a chance to settle when you were being reasonable and didn't take it.
I'd file my BBB claim. File against the selling dealer, and the Toyota sales zone you are in, unless you have moved since the purchase.
You might also consider plastering the car with lemon peel off vinyl graphics with the dealer and Toyota's name on it (if you roll that way. I do.) I'd let them know in advance, in case the dealership wants to fix the car themselves and eat the repair costs.
At this point, unless the dealer wants to pay for the repairs out of pocket, I'd tell Toyota that you won't settle for anything less than every cent of your money back. They had a chance to settle when you were being reasonable and didn't take it.
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I'm sorry to hear that they're pushing you around like that. It seems like they've offered you no real choice BUT to push back. Hoping all goes well and in your favor when all is said and done.
My advice: consult a lemon law attorney TODAY, and see how strong your case is. This is nothing you would reveal to your dealership or to Toyota, but at least you'll know where you stand, and what you have under your hat. If you know you have a strong lemon law case, you can be pretty firm in dealing with them, knowing you have that to fall back on. If you have no lemon law case, however, you may choose to accept a more modest settlement, if offered one at all.
You will receive advice to go all out and not stop until you get every penny back (and you may already be there), but you have a lot more to lose than money here. Your life has value as well, and in my opinion, no car is worth spending months in court over. You may get more out of them in the end, but did you lose anything in the process?
Again, best of luck my friend.
My advice: consult a lemon law attorney TODAY, and see how strong your case is. This is nothing you would reveal to your dealership or to Toyota, but at least you'll know where you stand, and what you have under your hat. If you know you have a strong lemon law case, you can be pretty firm in dealing with them, knowing you have that to fall back on. If you have no lemon law case, however, you may choose to accept a more modest settlement, if offered one at all.
You will receive advice to go all out and not stop until you get every penny back (and you may already be there), but you have a lot more to lose than money here. Your life has value as well, and in my opinion, no car is worth spending months in court over. You may get more out of them in the end, but did you lose anything in the process?
Again, best of luck my friend.
I don't think you have a lemon law case. In my state anyway.
Lemon Law here refers to multiple unsuccessful attempts to repair the same problem. They don't even acknowledge there is a problem.
Lemon Law here refers to multiple unsuccessful attempts to repair the same problem. They don't even acknowledge there is a problem.
I don't have a lemon law case. I get free legal services (in some areas anyway) through my workplace so I'll consult with them soon; they're on vacation now.
I'm really anxious to hear what Toyota has to tell me about what transpired yesterday. I left a message for my case manager to please call me back as soon as possible, preferably today, because it seems like there was a big miscommunication there between Toyota, the dealership, the SE rep., and myself. I'm still hopeful that things can be resolved this way, perhaps in January, but I'm prepared to fight if I have to.
To make matters worse, I took a look at the door panel "repair" job that the dealership did and it looks worse than the scratch that was there before! I forwarded a picture to Toyota so hopefully they can get the dealership to *replace* not *repair* the panel.
I'm really anxious to hear what Toyota has to tell me about what transpired yesterday. I left a message for my case manager to please call me back as soon as possible, preferably today, because it seems like there was a big miscommunication there between Toyota, the dealership, the SE rep., and myself. I'm still hopeful that things can be resolved this way, perhaps in January, but I'm prepared to fight if I have to.
To make matters worse, I took a look at the door panel "repair" job that the dealership did and it looks worse than the scratch that was there before! I forwarded a picture to Toyota so hopefully they can get the dealership to *replace* not *repair* the panel.
How many new cars on the lot made the SAME noise when you went to the dealership since its "normal" and you have no "issue"?
@VVT:
Before you go for the legal solution FIRST send a snail mail RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED to the CEO of Toyota Motor USA Corporate HQ...
As succinctly as possible, in one page explain the problems and what has transpired to this point, make sure to be to the point and state that you have been patient and done everything you could on YOUR part to get the issues solved. Tell them you are completley dissatisfied about the handling of the situation and that you will give TMUSA one last chance within a 60 day period to solve the problems or you will be left with no choice but to seek legal action to resolve the situation.
I would tell them also that if the issues cannot be resolved you would like them to replace the car with either an exact replacement (only paying administrative fees) or your money back.
You MUST contact Corporate HQ to let them know of your dissatisfaction with the SE service rep.
Before you go for the legal solution FIRST send a snail mail RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED to the CEO of Toyota Motor USA Corporate HQ...
As succinctly as possible, in one page explain the problems and what has transpired to this point, make sure to be to the point and state that you have been patient and done everything you could on YOUR part to get the issues solved. Tell them you are completley dissatisfied about the handling of the situation and that you will give TMUSA one last chance within a 60 day period to solve the problems or you will be left with no choice but to seek legal action to resolve the situation.
I would tell them also that if the issues cannot be resolved you would like them to replace the car with either an exact replacement (only paying administrative fees) or your money back.
You MUST contact Corporate HQ to let them know of your dissatisfaction with the SE service rep.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
How many new cars on the lot made the SAME noise when you went to the dealership since its "normal" and you have no "issue"?
Unfortunately new tCs aren't plentiful on dealers' lots, and manual tCs are virtually nonexistent. Not having a car of identical spec would be something the dealer could use as ammunition to say my car behaves normally. The first time I met with the SE Toyota rep. that was the argument I used, but the dealer didn't have another tC on the lot so it was a moot point. Hypothetically speaking I doubt you'd find another tC that makes the noise mine does, especially brand-new; my car was perfect for the first month of ownership.
91344George: I'll try to get something typed up in the next couple of days to that effect.
How many new cars on the lot made the SAME noise when you went to the dealership since its "normal" and you have no "issue"?
Unfortunately new tCs aren't plentiful on dealers' lots, and manual tCs are virtually nonexistent. Not having a car of identical spec would be something the dealer could use as ammunition to say my car behaves normally. The first time I met with the SE Toyota rep. that was the argument I used, but the dealer didn't have another tC on the lot so it was a moot point. Hypothetically speaking I doubt you'd find another tC that makes the noise mine does, especially brand-new; my car was perfect for the first month of ownership.
91344George: I'll try to get something typed up in the next couple of days to that effect.
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
91344George: I'll try to get something typed up in the next couple of days to that effect.
Make sure you address it to the CEO (MUST BE SENT RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED!!!)
...I would bet that TMUSA does NOT always know everything about the behavior of the zone offices, and corporate can override the "final" decision of the SE zone office. You have gone out of your way to be cooperative and VERY patient in solving the issues now it is the turn of TMUSA HQ to return the favor.
Also keep a copy of the letter you send.
My sympathy goes out to you, it is VERY frustrating and depressing that you spent a large sum of your hard earned dollars and have had to struggle to get Toyota's product to live up to its claim of great quality.
91344George: I'll try to get something typed up in the next couple of days to that effect.
Make sure you address it to the CEO (MUST BE SENT RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED!!!)
...I would bet that TMUSA does NOT always know everything about the behavior of the zone offices, and corporate can override the "final" decision of the SE zone office. You have gone out of your way to be cooperative and VERY patient in solving the issues now it is the turn of TMUSA HQ to return the favor.
Also keep a copy of the letter you send.
My sympathy goes out to you, it is VERY frustrating and depressing that you spent a large sum of your hard earned dollars and have had to struggle to get Toyota's product to live up to its claim of great quality.
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odie:
When you want results from big companies the snail mail RRR is still the best way to go. It is a subtle message that you are very serious about getting results. Putting it on paper is still very much alive at big operations, because next to being served with legal papers, the snail mail RRR puts them on notice.
Try sending a snail mail RRR to the CEO of TMUSA.
When you want results from big companies the snail mail RRR is still the best way to go. It is a subtle message that you are very serious about getting results. Putting it on paper is still very much alive at big operations, because next to being served with legal papers, the snail mail RRR puts them on notice.
Try sending a snail mail RRR to the CEO of TMUSA.
Ladies & gents,
Forgive me for being direct, I don't meant to be rude. I just want to be concise and clear at the same time. I'll start with some questions, and then tell you my story. I appreciate any time you can spare.
Would someone explain precisely where in the engine this problem originates, and then further, which parts down & up the chain are directly affected by it? For example, if oil's leaving the timing gear area, what's letting it leave? Is that thing the problem? And what's that thing called? And when that thing's problematic, what are the names of the parts down/up the chain that suffer? Which objects actually produce the audible noise? And could you explain precisely what's happening in those two objects, when they're making that noise? And what are the long-term consequences to the engine of that?
I want to tell my dealership what's happening, precisely. Because I'm pretty sure they'll need to be told -- going by all the evidence out there on the Internet, if I lack a full command of specifically what's happening, they simply will not take me as seriously as I intend to be taken.
On Monday (12/19/2011), I took my Scion tC 2012 in to have this fixed. The engine got nice & hot on the way there, oil as well, as it's a 20 minute drive at highway speeds. I let it sit overnight, with instructions to them that I wanted to be there when the car was started the next morning.
Tuesday (12/20/2011), I showed up at 8:00 AM and they started the car, and a mechanic I believe I can trust listened to the startup noise, said yeah you're right, that's exactly what the TSB for the other cars with your engine addresses. They ordered the part/parts, a timing gear I believe.
Wednesday (12/21/2011), the part/parts show up, they installed it, had it ready for me to drive home that evening. I picked it up at 4:00 PM. The gentleman who called me said it was probably fixed, they didn't hear the noise after letting it sit for four hours and then starting it. I can only conclude that they started the engine immediately after "fixing" whatever they fixed, ran it for a minute or two (certainly not enough to get the oil hot, since oil temperature lags engine temperature), turned it off. Started it again four hours later and didn't hear the noise. From what I've read, if you pump cool oil throughout the engine and then stop the engine, the oil stays around a lot longer, than if you have oil that's hot. Hot oil will drain out of all the nooks & crevasses of an engine almost instantly. I can attest to this because after an extended drive of at least 10-20 minutes, I can turn the car off, come back to it 30 minutes later, and there's that noise. Every single time. Never fails, provided that the oil was hot when I turned the car off, and let it sit at least 20 minutes.
Ultimately, I suspect they'll find a way to take care of me. If I have to go through anything like what VVTinme and so many others have been put through, however, then I do already have a Plan B, part of which involves a media blitz: consumers must know about recurring Toyota/Scion/Lexus quality control problems that go on for years and never get fixed. This speaks volumes more than the misleading ads portraying the Toyota-umbrella of companies as held to uniquely high quality/production standards. For now, I still have (I'm forcing myself) trust in my dealership, and they can buy my silence with swift, contrite action. This will certainly be an interesting experience, and I'll keep you all posted as much as possible.
Any last tips I should be aware of?
Thank you,
-Chad
Forgive me for being direct, I don't meant to be rude. I just want to be concise and clear at the same time. I'll start with some questions, and then tell you my story. I appreciate any time you can spare.
Would someone explain precisely where in the engine this problem originates, and then further, which parts down & up the chain are directly affected by it? For example, if oil's leaving the timing gear area, what's letting it leave? Is that thing the problem? And what's that thing called? And when that thing's problematic, what are the names of the parts down/up the chain that suffer? Which objects actually produce the audible noise? And could you explain precisely what's happening in those two objects, when they're making that noise? And what are the long-term consequences to the engine of that?
I want to tell my dealership what's happening, precisely. Because I'm pretty sure they'll need to be told -- going by all the evidence out there on the Internet, if I lack a full command of specifically what's happening, they simply will not take me as seriously as I intend to be taken.
On Monday (12/19/2011), I took my Scion tC 2012 in to have this fixed. The engine got nice & hot on the way there, oil as well, as it's a 20 minute drive at highway speeds. I let it sit overnight, with instructions to them that I wanted to be there when the car was started the next morning.
Tuesday (12/20/2011), I showed up at 8:00 AM and they started the car, and a mechanic I believe I can trust listened to the startup noise, said yeah you're right, that's exactly what the TSB for the other cars with your engine addresses. They ordered the part/parts, a timing gear I believe.
Wednesday (12/21/2011), the part/parts show up, they installed it, had it ready for me to drive home that evening. I picked it up at 4:00 PM. The gentleman who called me said it was probably fixed, they didn't hear the noise after letting it sit for four hours and then starting it. I can only conclude that they started the engine immediately after "fixing" whatever they fixed, ran it for a minute or two (certainly not enough to get the oil hot, since oil temperature lags engine temperature), turned it off. Started it again four hours later and didn't hear the noise. From what I've read, if you pump cool oil throughout the engine and then stop the engine, the oil stays around a lot longer, than if you have oil that's hot. Hot oil will drain out of all the nooks & crevasses of an engine almost instantly. I can attest to this because after an extended drive of at least 10-20 minutes, I can turn the car off, come back to it 30 minutes later, and there's that noise. Every single time. Never fails, provided that the oil was hot when I turned the car off, and let it sit at least 20 minutes.
Ultimately, I suspect they'll find a way to take care of me. If I have to go through anything like what VVTinme and so many others have been put through, however, then I do already have a Plan B, part of which involves a media blitz: consumers must know about recurring Toyota/Scion/Lexus quality control problems that go on for years and never get fixed. This speaks volumes more than the misleading ads portraying the Toyota-umbrella of companies as held to uniquely high quality/production standards. For now, I still have (I'm forcing myself) trust in my dealership, and they can buy my silence with swift, contrite action. This will certainly be an interesting experience, and I'll keep you all posted as much as possible.
Any last tips I should be aware of?
Thank you,
-Chad
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