How much different...really?

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DieselJeep

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Dec 14, 2011
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New Hampshire
Hi all,

I have a 2007 WK diesel jeep I bought used in Nov 2010 with 25k miles.

It is extremely difficult to find oil that meets the manufacturers specs (MB 229.51). I have got to believe there is no way in heck the previous owners did the correct fill during their oil changes, to include the Ford dealership I bought the Jeep from who I made change the oil at delivery and I am pretty sure they only used ford diesel synthetic 5w30 which I changed at 5k afterwards.

So the manufacturers recommended change interval is 10-12k miles, which I have met religiously and used top of the line synthetics to do so from different manufacturers. These were NOT 229.51 approved oils. The last 2 changes were castrol syntec edge, which the Mercedes website says meet the spec (but the bottle does not!).

Here's the thing: I finally ran into another WK Jeep diesel owner at a gas station and struck up a conversation with him...he told me that his DPF had gone at 25000 and that if I did not already have an extended warranty I should buy one because they are very expensive. So, a little alarm bell went off and I did some extensive research on the subject...turns out using oil that does not meet the MB spec is what makes these DPFs clog and fail.

I changed the oil in my jeep last week and the darn thing takes about 10.25 quarts, so at 10 bucks a quart this gets pretty expensive.

I finally found one vendor that carries the Mobil 1 ESP which is MB approved for my application. But again what is currently in the vehicle, which was changed a week a go, does not meet the MB spec.

My suspicion is that the other guy who had the jeep never paid that much attention to the oil in the first place, and he was probably using syn blend or Dino oil to begin with, because my DPF should have failed already. ...and like I said I have only used synthetics.


My question to the forum is how much different really is the top of the line synthetics that I have been using from the correct oil, and should I immediately change out the oil (again) :[ or should I wait and do it at 5k or the normal 10k?

I am inclined to believe since I haven't had a problem, it's no problem (using the oil I have been), and wait 5k to fix it. What say you all?
 
Too many abbreviations in this post that I don't know what they mean?

WK ? DPF (Diesel particulate filter, had to look it up) ? MB (Mercedes Benz)?

Did Mercedes Benz own Jeep at one time?
 
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Do you know what the oil consumption is? The ESP oils were developed specifically to protect DPF's by having low ash content. If the previous owner ran for 3 years with high-ash oils, there may be higher blockage of the DPF than if he had used the correct oil. If the engine oil consumption is low, and it is not sending oil through the exhaust system, maybe you have dodged a bullet.

Are there any instructions in the owner's manual about maintenance of the the DPF? I remember reading that when the particulate traps were first introduced, manufacturer's were recommending that they be removed from the car every X miles (50-60k?) so they could be baked (regenerated) in an oven to burn off the ash. Maybe you could get this done as preventive maintenance.

I recommend that you put in the correct oil on the next change, unless you find that the engine is consuming a lot of oil, then cut the OCI in half and go to the correct oil.
 
Here is the link to Mercedes Operating Fluids:
http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolistenmain.php?session_id=&navigation_path=&language_id=1
There are a lot of oils on 229.51, including Mobil 1ESP Formula M 5W40.
All 229.51 are ACEA C3 oils, with ash They have a low TBN (total base number = acid neutralizing ability).
I have a BMW X5 35d which is similar to your MB powered Jeep Grand Cherokee (?) in many respects. I used dealer supplied oil, Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W30 which is a 229.51 oil, I believe. At the IDrive prescribed OCI (oil change interval) of ~10000 miles, UOA (used oil analysis) showed severe depletion of alkalinity and resultant (probably corrosive) increase in Fe and Al numbers.
I went back to the MB operating Fluids page. The page for prescribed oils for car engines (?231.2, page 3? - the site isn't working right now - it does that occaisonally) said that for diesel car engines (6xx series) 228.51 diesel TRUCK oils (suitable for DPF, urea etc) were approved. So I ordered a lot of Delvac 1 LE 5W30 from Europe. It has twice the alkalinity of the Castrol, only 0.2% more ash, same S and P. I expect excellent UOA results at 13-14000 miles and I expect my DPF to last perhaps 120K miles instead of 150K. Or maybe more, since it shows zero tendency to burn (use) this particular oil.
Valvoline has come out with a 228.51 oil,
http://www.valvoline.com/products/commercial-industrial-products/heavy-duty-diesel-engine-oils/133
which apparently meets 228.51. I don't know what its' TBN is but it has to be more than the 229.51 oils!
It will be available about 1/1/12
It is a 10W40 so for NH...do you park inside a heated garage?
I have done a lot of research on these oils.

Charlie

Castrol SLX Prof:
http://www.aral.de/assets/bp_internet/ca.../slx_oe_pds.pdf
They don't even list the TBN, but I think it is 6.4
Delvac 1 LE 5W30:
http://www.mobil.com/Lithuania-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1_LE_5W-30.aspx
Note TBN is 12.6!
 
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By the way, the DPF fails due to the wrong oil in proportion to the ash content and also phosphorus content, and also the rate of burning said oils. Pre CJ4 typical dino truck diesel oils in the US have 1.2-1.5% ash and about 11-1300 ppm phosphorus, both about 1.7 times what is prescribed for 229.51. So just based on numbers, a DPF should fail if this type oil is used in about 60% of the mileage it would otherwise last. Perhaps 90000 mi instead of 150K?.
Something else was wrong if somebody's DPF failed at 25K miles.
Dino oils do have a higher volatility (lower "flash point") than synthetics, to make a vast generalization. So engines do burn more of them.

Charlie
 
Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
Too many abbreviations in this post that I don't know what they mean?

WK ? DPF (Diesel particulate filter, had to look it up) ? MB (Mercedes Benz)?

Did Mercedes Benz own Jeep at one time?
Mercedes Benz owned the entire Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep company fror several years. You never heard of DiamlerChrysler or Diamler Benz?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler_AG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_Grand_Cherokee

Mainly on the East coast Jeep people use abreviations instead of names.His WK is an 05-10 Jeep Grand Cherokee with a Mercedes Built Diesel engine.

Several of the MB based engines are used in Jeeps and Dodge trucks now. Infact if you put a 4.7L Dodge engine next to a 70's MB engine they look almost exactly alike!
 
FYI, Ford (Motorcraft) only has five Diesel rated oils,an old staright 30 (probably CH) for pre'95 diesels, an expensive 0W30 CI4/SM, a mineral 10W30 CJ4/SM, a mineral 15W40 CJ4/SM and a synthetic 5W40 CJ4/SM. The 0W30 CI4 is designated for older, pre DPF engines. The 10W30, 15W30 and 5W40 are all designed for Ford's flavor of DPF. Whether that makes it suitable for a Mercedes engine, you fellas can debate.
 
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Wow! Lots of knowledgeable fellas in here!

I think the abbreviation questions have been answered by other posters, I'll just add that Jeeps are often identified by their model designators so people don't get confused....or so it confuses non jeep folks. Lol!

The MB approved oils list does have a lot of oils, but they are VERY difficult to find, and also slightly misleading ( originally I thought that Castrol Edge met the spec but it turns out the European variety does, but the American formula does NOT). Much longer story short, I normally buy my parts and oil at auto zone because of their rewards program and military/vet discount....but auto zone, advance auto, VIP, walmart none of these places carry any 229.51 spec oil...found it at pep boys finally and they now offer military discounts so I will be getting it there in the future I guess.

Oil consumption is rather low (I think?), maybe a quart or less every 15k.

I did not know DPFs could be recharged. I will definitely look into that now though.

I honestly don't know exactly what oil the ford stealership put in there, I just know I asked the tech and he said it was the same oil they put in the f-series diesels, which is what made me change it at 5k to begin with. At the time I assumed it was synthetic 5w30 but who knows.

I knew the DPFs fail because of the Sulfur Ash Phosphorous content but did not realize the ratios...thanks for that. There is nothing in any of the maintenance literature I've read that says the DPF requires any kind of maintenance though.

Charlie, I don't park in a heated garage. Vehicle stays outside year round and is subject to very cold starts in Jan and February plus I ski so it can often find cold at around 20 below a few days of the year .... Should I go for a different oil in the winter? The manual only says 5w30...I've had jeeps in the past that do recommend something lower in winter but this one does not.


I think I covered all the questions for now...
 
For -20F 5W30 M1 ESP or 5W40 M1 ESP Formula M should be fine.
Unless you want to order a few cases of M1 ESP 0W40 from Norway, which is a better oil because not only is it 0W40 but it has a TBN of 7.8 whereas the ESP 5W30 is I think 6.4. My experience with a similar German 3L diesel SUV (SUV = more weight = more fuel consumption = more acid buildup) is that 10000 miles more than "wore out" the 9L of oil in the sump. But ordering oil from out of country is VERY expensive - ending up costing $19/qt with shipping, though I will go 13-14K mi on changes, whereas the Castrol dealer oil was in retrospect good for only about 7000 mi. before it "wore out".
The ash in a DPF is noncombustible, it can't be burned out (it is metal oxides), but I do think it can be vacuumed out.

Charlie
 
Charlie

Thanks for that link!

I cross reference it with the product data sheet on the castrol page http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/p,q/Edge_BLACK_PDS_Sept_2011.pdf

Looks like 0w30 meets the mb specs. I wonder if the difference is only the viscosity? If so maybe i am actually ok till the next OIC...?

Anyway having that information significantly opens up the list of oils that are "ok".

DJ
 
Diesel Jeep, be sure to look at the bottle to make sure an oil meets a spec. As you have figured out, sometimes an oil is sold in 2 different formulations in N. America and Europe.
The Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W30 is synthetic. It's what the BMW dealers supply for DPF equipped diesels.
7K is just my guess at the mileage it should have been drained.

Charlie
 
Castrol SLX OE 5w-30 can be had at a BMW dealership for about $7 bottle.

Conversely have you tried to source from a Chrysler or Mercedes dealership?

Charlie and I disagree on the SLX. He's concerned with TAN levels under a full OCI where as I am not. You can research TAN and make your own determination. I can buy the SLX for less than 7$ a bottle so I do a change at 6.5-7 k miles. I probably spend the same about of $ that Charlie does on his import oil @ $14 bottle which he changes @ 14k miles.

Btw you should be able to pick up the M1 5w40 Formula M @ pepboys on sale.
 
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Thanks guys, all of your input has been most helpful. At this point I think I am going to do an oil change at 7k or so, and put in Mobil 1 or SLX.

Good to know that BMW sells the SLX at 7 bones a quart. I will have to check with MB and Jeep to see what they offer as well, and probably VW also since they are nearby. The other good thing about pep boys is they actually stock my filter instead of me having to order it.

DJ
 
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