component speakers without the components

[JHZR2]

Hi,

In my W123 MB cars, Im considering upgrading the sound system via amp and new speakers. I have refurbished OE head units, and while they are 30+ yo technology, everything else looks too gawdy.

Unfortunately the cars are tough to fit. THey take 3.5-4" speakers up front and 4-5 1/4" in the rear. Most seem to get 4" and 5 1/4" to fit.

But the issue is maintaining the OE grilles and keeping everything looking and working like original.

The biggest issue is the coaxial speakers that have a high-standing tweeter up top. It interferes. I dont want to have component tweeters, as they will not look right in the car and be there in an unobtrusive way.

So, my thought is to acquire component speakers, but not use the crossovers or tweeters. The car currently has 1-way speakers, can it be any different/worse than what I have now (Im quite happy with the old paper speakers and sound in these cars, BTW, not looking to mod too much, just overcome time-induced degradation of paper cone speakers).

Or is there a fundamental difference in component speakers that prevents me from being able to just use the speaker without the crossover to get decent sound? Like is the design approach different from a 1-way that would handle full range?

Thanks in advance for any insight!

 

[moklock]

I kinda wonder if that setup will actually produce better sound than even just buying those cheap OE-replacement type speakers sold at wal-mart, autozone, etc. which are usually "extended range" or dual cone 1 way speakers.

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Originally Posted By: moklock
I kinda wonder if that setup will actually produce better sound than even just buying those cheap OE-replacement type speakers sold at wal-mart, autozone, etc. which are usually "extended range" or dual cone 1 way speakers.


Very possibly the case unless an amplifier upgrade (which he mentions) is installed.

Lower quality speakers are generally more efficient (more sound per watt).

A component speaker is likely to need some power to sound good. And as per the original question, component speakers could be designed, along with their crossovers to intentionally limit both lower and higher frequencies. Components usually are fairly small (
I've heard/seen many systems where an upgrade from factory speakers produced inferior sound simply because there wasn't enough power delivered to them from the OEM head unit.

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Check out their speaker selection. Can find some from US and European countries also. The static impedance should probably be maintained and I've no idea what that is for European cars. But if an 8 ohm speaker looks to fit the bill and you are using external amplification, should not be an issue.

http://www.parts-express.com/

Here is an example:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-344#BVQAWidgetID

Note that speaker is good for open back systems (no designed enclosure).

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1


I've heard/seen many systems where an upgrade from factory speakers produced inferior sound simply because there wasn't enough power delivered to them from the OEM head unit.


Yeah, so if I was to amplify the signal from the HU, then what?

 

[sleddriver]

Check out Madisound & Meniscus.

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1


I've heard/seen many systems where an upgrade from factory speakers produced inferior sound simply because there wasn't enough power delivered to them from the OEM head unit.


Yeah, so if I was to amplify the signal from the HU, then what?


Yes, I saw that you may add an amplifier. Then power wouldn't be a problem obviously.

And the question about component speakers and their crossovers still remains.

I'm not a speaker expert per se, but I know a bit about electronics and the physics involved in designing them.

Having said that, If I'm designing a "higher end" speaker (as components generally are), I'm probably placing a bandpass filter in front of a mid-driver, which is what most component speakers have as their "lower frequency" driver. I wouldn't want a lot of bass into the speaker because their physical size, the enclosure they are mounted in and perhaps their electrical/magnetic circuit doesn't lend themselves to reproducing that long wavelength. This would involve having some series capacitive circuit involved in the crossover. Additionally, if I'm designing this higher end mid-driver, I'd probably limit high frequencies to it with a circuit employing some amount of series inductance.

This may not be the case...but if there is a larger inductor on the component speaker's crossover, then it's probably limiting high frequencies to the mid-driver.

Also, and I doubt this is an issue since your car is only 30 years old (but it may be an issue), you'll need to know if the amplifier (in your OEM unit) has an internal reference (ground) isolated from the chassis ground, as are almost all systems today. This indicates the front end has isolation between the output drivers and the power source, otherwise one speaker lead is electrically connected to your negative battery terminal.

In other words, if one of the speaker leads on your car is grounded to chassis metal, then using a modern amplifier could be an issue requiring an audio transformer of some kind.

 

[JHZR2]

If it was shared somehow, then what? Bad alternator noise?

 

[digitalSniperX1]

Bad electrical noise is usually a ground loop and small signal issue. A ground loop forms a large antenna and picks up noise that corrupts a small signal.

Signals sent to drive speakers are large signals (voltage/current).


In the case I'm referring to anything from nothing negative would happen, it won't work at all (no sound and or severe distortion) and in the worst case could cause damage.

 

[97prizm]

This question has been asked on many forums. If you want to have component speakers without the tweeters or crossovers, make sure to run them off a high quality amp that has as little distortion as possible. Component series speakers like a higher rms wattage to them. Otherwise beig under driven is not good for them.

 

[JOD]

you have to have a crossover somewhere, or you'll blow out the tweeter. The crossover can be anywhere, though (head unit, amp, an inline crossover to block frequencies below 3K). So, there are a lot of options. You can run the bigger speaker full range, and it won't be a big deal. It'll distort a little, but F/S drops off, so you probably won't hear it.

You can get drivers from either of these locations:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/speaker-drivers/
http://www.parts-express.com/speakers.cfm

You may want to just consider a full-range driver. Having the tweeters and the midrange in different locations can cause some headaches unless your hobby is car audio. Here would be some examples:

5" cheap/good deal
5" better quality/mid-price

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: JOD
you have to have a crossover somewhere, or you'll blow out the tweeter. The crossover can be anywhere, though (head unit, amp, an inline crossover to block frequencies below 3K). So, there are a lot of options. You can run the bigger speaker full range, and it won't be a big deal. It'll distort a little, but F/S drops off, so you probably won't hear it.

You can get drivers from either of these locations:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/speaker-drivers/
http://www.parts-express.com/speakers.cfm

You may want to just consider a full-range driver. Having the tweeters and the midrange in different locations can cause some headaches unless your hobby is car audio. Here would be some examples:

5" cheap/good deal
5" better quality/mid-price


My point is that I would NOT use the tweeter, thus just using the speaker, which has a better form factor than coaxials that have a center tweeter sticking up a bit.

I would prefer just full range speakers, but they dont seem to be readily available... but now I have some leads. Out of curiosity, which of the Fostex in the 4" size are the best? Thanks for the links.

 

[JOD]

OK, gotcha. If that's the case, yeah--you can run it no problem, but a full-range driver will be a better bet as F/S really drops off over 3K on a regular driver.

The FX120 is a "better" driver, and it'll be a little less picky on the location, but the basket and magnet are BIG. Guys who've tried to jam in in a car door have had some issues. The Fountek 5" with the phase plug (Madisound) looks like a good option for a car install. The neodymium magnet should make it a little easier to install given the smaller profile and the aluminum cone will hold up better in a car environment. It's a little more robust on the high end, as well.

Where are the speakers located in this car, anyway? Doors, I'm guessing?

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I have refurbished OE head units, and while they are 30+ yo technology, everything else looks too gawdy.



BTW, if you ever go totally off the deep end and become a complete car audio geek, you can always find something that looks period appropriate for the W123, but with modern performance: McIntosh MX406.

If the 122 Wagon sitting in my garage ever makes any progress, I'd seriously have to consider this. Of course, given the car's current condition, the head unit would exceed the value of the car...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: JOD
OK, gotcha. If that's the case, yeah--you can run it no problem, but a full-range driver will be a better bet as F/S really drops off over 3K on a regular driver.

The FX120 is a "better" driver, and it'll be a little less picky on the location, but the basket and magnet are BIG. Guys who've tried to jam in in a car door have had some issues. The Fountek 5" with the phase plug (Madisound) looks like a good option for a car install. The neodymium magnet should make it a little easier to install given the smaller profile and the aluminum cone will hold up better in a car environment. It's a little more robust on the high end, as well.

Where are the speakers located in this car, anyway? Doors, I'm guessing?


W123 coupe and sedan (240D and 300CD). Front speakers are 4M size (metric, something between 3.5 and 4", though it seems that 4" generally works) in the dash at the windshield, rears are either same size or 5 1/4 ish size on rear parcel shelf.

 

[buickman50401]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

So, my thought is to acquire component speakers, but not use the crossovers or tweeters. The car currently has 1-way speakers, can it be any different/worse than what I have now (Im quite happy with the old paper speakers and sound in these cars, BTW, not looking to mod too much, just overcome time-induced degradation of paper cone speakers).

Or is there a fundamental difference in component speakers that prevents me from being able to just use the speaker without the crossover to get decent sound? Like is the design approach different from a 1-way that would handle full range?

Thanks in advance for any insight!

The old speakers are likely employ a whizzer cone which helps with reproduction of higher frequencies. Either that or they have a radiating dome instead of a dust cap.

Regardless of the OEM design, you will probably get worse sound than the OEM speakers if you attempt to just use the driver from a component set because you are going to lose most of your highs.

Paper speakers with whizzers or radiating domes aren't great at reproducing higher frequency sounds, but they are much better than what you'll get out of a component set sans tweeters.

 

[youdontwannaknow]

Look for "full range" speakers for your car. I agree running component speakers without the components is a terrible idea.

Give a call to one the speaker driver sources alreayd mentioned in the thread and they can definitely help you out -
Madisound.
PartsExpress.
Meniscus Audio.
Zalytron.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
My point is that I would NOT use the tweeter, thus just using the speaker, which has a better form factor than coaxials that have a center tweeter sticking up a bit.

Have you seen these?

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_068R525N/Re...way#details-tab

Looks like a very shallow mounting depth and the tweeter isn't protruding much. No idea about their sound quality...


Otherwise, the problem with just using a single 5" driver is that most of them aren't capable of producing frequencies above about 6kHz, so they may sound very muffled... sort of like AM radio quality.

 

[buickman50401]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
My point is that I would NOT use the tweeter, thus just using the speaker, which has a better form factor than coaxials that have a center tweeter sticking up a bit.

Have you seen these?

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_068R525N/Re...way#details-tab


Something like that would probably work just fine in his car. The shallowness of the mounting depth in those is unreal at less than 2" regardless of top or bottom mount. The OEM speakers are probably "taller" than those. Interesting design. I've never seen the magnet shoved that far up into the basket before. The tweeter protrusion based on the pictures looks to be less than 1/4".

OP, while Crutchfields prices aren't great they are a good resource for quickly finding out the mounting depths for the speakers they carry (and they you can go purchase them cheaper elsewhere).

Also keep in mind that you might be able to use a bottom mount solution with a bit of effort which will give you more clearance for the OEM grills.