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#2450624 - 12/01/11 10:55 PM How not to highside?
mjoekingz28 Offline


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: I-55 @ I-20
I had a mishap at the track some time ago and could never figure out why what happened did happen.

So you're at a good lean angle and you either hit a wet spot or give to much throttle and the rear begins to slide. I know you DO NOT let off the throttle or you'll flip. What do you do to safely and accurately regain the traction.



My experience:

It had just rained a few hours before and the track was partially wet/dry. I rounded going around a long sweeper and the rear was slightly out and I just held it like that through the wet turn. Just thinking to myself "this is cool", when all of a sudden I hit a dry patch, the rear caught and the bike stood up and sent me to the ground. I tried to catch myself when hitting the ground by using my arms in a push up position. This broke my elbow.

It was in 2005 and I would just love to actually learn something from it.
_________________________
Saturn 1998 SC2
281k as of 12/29/13
5 speed


grip and rip
turn and burn

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#2450656 - 12/02/11 12:34 AM Re: How not to highside? [Re: mjoekingz28]
Radman Offline


Registered: 11/24/10
Posts: 485
Loc: Detroit, Michigan
Six years ago and you are just now thinking about this?
This depends on the track and the tires.
In mixed conditions sliding can either put you in the front or on the ground. Experience and instinct is how a racer decides. Mixed tracks I took it conservative. Not to say I never pancaked a bike before.
_________________________
2006 Maxima 120K M1-105, M1 0W40
2006 Sentra 90K M1-105, GTX 5W30
2010 Altima 20K M1-105, GTX 5W30
2013 Yamaha FZ1 1K PL1410, SRT5 15W40

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#2450782 - 12/02/11 08:35 AM Re: How not to highside? [Re: mjoekingz28]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2533
Loc: Canada
"Six years ago and you are just now thinking about this?"

Post traumatic stress disorder or.... just got out of the hospital?

I heard of a guy who had been injured in an auto accident. When he came out of his coma, the only injury that he thought he had was his broken leg. Head injuries sometimes just don't register with those afflicted.

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#2450809 - 12/02/11 09:19 AM Re: How not to highside? [Re: mjoekingz28]
BigCahuna Offline


Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 1225
Loc: Deep in the heart of Jersey
I'm betting he's thinking of going back to the track and doesn't want to make the same mis-que again.I can't understand why they let racers race on wet roads. You know what's about to happens when the rooster tails start flying.,,,

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#2451648 - 12/03/11 12:40 AM Re: How not to highside? [Re: mjoekingz28]
mjoekingz28 Offline


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: I-55 @ I-20
Riding in the rain, my guess, is a valuable training scenario. The track 'referee' wouldn't let me go out in the rain, but waited an hour and let us on a damp track. 2-3 sessions in and I was down.

There was no head impact, but thats not to say there are no lingering injuries.


You know Radman, I never got any closure. I thought I was in control and as soon as you think that,,,,,,

I've considered enrolling in a physics class to fully understand what/how/when/where the forces interacted with all the factors (steering angle, lean angle, traction, etc.)
_________________________
Saturn 1998 SC2
281k as of 12/29/13
5 speed


grip and rip
turn and burn

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#2451769 - 12/03/11 08:48 AM Re: How not to highside? [Re: mjoekingz28]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2533
Loc: Canada
Let's try to look at the mishap analytically.

You were racing on a damp track and your rear wheel began to spin due to compromised traction. The wheel is spinning because the moisture on the track is not allowing the rubber and pavement to make good contact. Accordingly, when you rear wheel made contact with dry pavement, it would have made much better adhesion to the point where it would be similar to the wheel contacting an immovable object. The sudden adhesion would cause the bike to stand up and possibly hi-side. In your case it did. The only way that I could imagine to avoid a high side would have been to stay hard on the gas and continue the wheel spin until you're out of the turn and the bike is in an upright position.

This is just my perspective of what might have happened. I'm not a racer so, I might be completely off base.

I encountered a similar situation while riding back roads but with sand in a curve and relatively slow speeds (50-60 mph). Fortunately, once the bike got out of the sand and back onto clear pavement, it just snapped upright and it didn't go down.

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#2452067 - 12/03/11 03:41 PM Re: How not to highside? [Re: boraticus]
OtisBlkR1 Offline


Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 2853
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Let's try to look at the mishap analytically.

You were racing on a damp track and your rear wheel began to spin due to compromised traction. The wheel is spinning because the moisture on the track is not allowing the rubber and pavement to make good contact. Accordingly, when you rear wheel made contact with dry pavement, it would have made much better adhesion to the point where it would be similar to the wheel contacting an immovable object. The sudden adhesion would cause the bike to stand up and possibly hi-side. In your case it did. The only way that I could imagine to avoid a high side would have been to stay hard on the gas and continue the wheel spin until you're out of the turn and the bike is in an upright position.



PERFECT REPLY: the only way you could stay on the gas and not highside in this situation is to absolutely stand on the throttle just before hitting that dry spot with a combination of also starting to stand the bike up. if you had the wheel spinning at a extreme rate you might be able to dance through the patch.. Ive seen many high/low sides at the track,ON the track, and on video,. The example you gave is one of the very worst situations you could find yourself in.. I dont like wet/damp tracks for just this reason.


There's a reason you see way, way more crashes durring AMA/SBK/MOTO-GP wet races, if the best in the world experience these problems and cant overcome them.. chances are you and i cant either.
_________________________
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#2452072 - 12/03/11 03:47 PM Re: How not to highside? [Re: OtisBlkR1]
KernelK Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 91
Loc: PA
Yup.

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#2452549 - 12/04/11 07:30 AM Re: How not to highside? [Re: mjoekingz28]
Smoky14 Offline


Registered: 04/23/03
Posts: 975
Loc: Nowhere NM


I've considered enrolling in a physics class to fully understand what/how/when/where the forces interacted with all the factors (steering angle, lean angle, traction, etc.)[/quote]
Having raced, studied physics, and crashed it comes down to "some days you get the bear, somedays the bear gets you".
Guys in MotoGP high side and low side. Those that recover are good, but most times LUCKY. Racing MC can hurt, stay on the rubber for best results.
Smoky
_________________________
99 Acura 2.3CL 5speed MT
12 Ford Fusion 2.5S 6speed MT

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#2456053 - 12/07/11 05:40 PM Re: How not to highside? [Re: Smoky14]
Doog Offline


Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 3450
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Smoky14


Having raced, studied physics, and crashed it comes down to "some days you get Sir Isaac Newton, somedays Sir Isaac Newton gets you".


Here I fixed it for you...... laugh
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The difference between a beer and your opinion is that I asked for a beer...

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#2456098 - 12/07/11 06:14 PM Re: How not to highside? [Re: Doog]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9434
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
That pretty much says it.

The only sure fire way to avoid highsiding on a bike when well banked is to not drift or slide particularly on pavement. I could say use extreme concentration reading the road condtion for changes in grip level but you should be doing that anyway and it's still no guarantee.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#2456639 - 12/08/11 07:39 AM Re: How not to highside? [Re: Doog]
Smoky14 Offline


Registered: 04/23/03
Posts: 975
Loc: Nowhere NM
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Smoky14


Having raced, studied physics, and crashed it comes down to "some days you get Sir Isaac Newton, somedays Sir Isaac Newton gets you".


Here I fixed it for you...... laugh


Thanks Doog, Ike was a nice guy,I think I went to school with him.
_________________________
99 Acura 2.3CL 5speed MT
12 Ford Fusion 2.5S 6speed MT

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#2457468 - 12/08/11 08:31 PM Re: How not to highside? [Re: mjoekingz28]
Mackelroy Offline


Registered: 12/03/04
Posts: 756
Loc: Florida /Texas
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
I had a mishap at the track some time ago and could never figure out why what happened did happen.

I know you DO NOT let off the throttle or you'll flip. What do you do to safely and accurately regain the traction.


__________________________________________________


If you chop the throttle, once the rear has kicked out, then you can have issue, easing off throttle some may catch the tire in the early stages. so can clutch use. Pressing on the outside peg can also limit a break out .

It also helps to be able to feel traction levels and adjust in the early moments, some people are numb to traction feel


But once the tire catches and if your in a crossed up position, you need to be on the gas hard to pull out of it, cause if you dont highside , its going to definitely want to tank slap at the very least.

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#2457512 - 12/08/11 09:20 PM Re: How not to highside? [Re: Mackelroy]
mjoekingz28 Offline


Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: I-55 @ I-20
Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
I had a mishap at the track some time ago and could never figure out why what happened did happen.

I know you DO NOT let off the throttle or you'll flip. What do you do to safely and accurately regain the traction.


__________________________________________________


If you chop the throttle, once the rear has kicked out, then you can have issue, easing off throttle some may catch the tire in the early stages. so can clutch use. Pressing on the outside peg can also limit a break out .

It also helps to be able to feel traction levels and adjust in the early moments, some people are numb to traction feel


But once the tire catches and if your in a crossed up position, you need to be on the gas hard to pull out of it, cause if you dont highside , its going to definitely want to tank slap at the very least.





Thanks all but this is what I want to hear. Once you lose traction from the rear, how do you regain it safely? Although I cannot picture how to do what you wrote, it seems to me that it makes sense. I guess understanding what to do while benchracing will help when you get a go at the track.
_________________________
Saturn 1998 SC2
281k as of 12/29/13
5 speed


grip and rip
turn and burn

Top
#2457521 - 12/08/11 09:30 PM Re: How not to highside? [Re: mjoekingz28]
CBR.worm Offline


Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1406
Loc: Jupiter, Fl
If it is wet and the rear (or front) starts to slide and you hit a dry patch, you won't regain it gracefully unless it is a really small dry patch.

If the track is dry and the back starts to slide under power, staying on the gas will allow the grip to be regained slowly and smoothly under ideal conditions - but you have to be careful not to let the tire spin up more, causing you to lowside (which is preferable). If you chop the throttle in that scenario it will grab hard and throw you. Just like if you hit a dry spot when sliding in the wet.

The best solution on a wet track with dry spots is to ride less aggressively - preferably on rain tires.
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'06 Infiniti G35 Sedan 6MT - 145k

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