There will be absolutely no harm in running a 30wt. Ford specs the 20wt. because they're trying to squeeze another 1/2 mile per gallon out of the car for CAFE requirements. I believe a 30wt. is a better lubricant for your Mustang; however, you're gonna have a hundred guys disagree with me; that's fine, I have no problem with that ...
2011 Mustang Oil Change, which oil better?
- Thread starter troyh
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20 weight oil should be just fine in most Fords. Some do require 5W30, or even 5W50.
Back in the 50's, when I was a teenager, I got a brand-new 1954 Ford for high school graduation, and by 1959 I had 140,000 hard miles on it, with very infrequent oil changes. It was always service with Sinclair straight 20 weight oil, and never smoked or burned oil in the 140,000 miles I had it.
With the multigrade 20 weights they have today, it is common for Fords to go 300,000 or more miles before overhaul using XW20 oil.
Back in the 50's, when I was a teenager, I got a brand-new 1954 Ford for high school graduation, and by 1959 I had 140,000 hard miles on it, with very infrequent oil changes. It was always service with Sinclair straight 20 weight oil, and never smoked or burned oil in the 140,000 miles I had it.
With the multigrade 20 weights they have today, it is common for Fords to go 300,000 or more miles before overhaul using XW20 oil.
Originally Posted By: troyh
I live in the mild area of Idaho, near Boise.....The Ultra looks good to me because I get basically free after MIR.
there's your answer. Go for the Ultra
Originally Posted By: troyh
My buddy told me the M! 0W-20 was a much better oil and uses this in his Mustang (year older).
Your buddy may be a great guy and a scholar in his field, but he doesn't know much about lubricants... The oils are very similar, and are both premium lubricants. If the lower MRV specs aren't important to you and you can get a better deal on the Ultra, I'd say it's the clear choice.
If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30. Otherwise, I'd use the specified 5W20. Better fuel economy doesn't equate to less protection. This is a false dichotomy that a few still just can't wrap their head around...
I live in the mild area of Idaho, near Boise.....The Ultra looks good to me because I get basically free after MIR.
there's your answer. Go for the Ultra
Originally Posted By: troyh
My buddy told me the M! 0W-20 was a much better oil and uses this in his Mustang (year older).
Your buddy may be a great guy and a scholar in his field, but he doesn't know much about lubricants... The oils are very similar, and are both premium lubricants. If the lower MRV specs aren't important to you and you can get a better deal on the Ultra, I'd say it's the clear choice.
If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30. Otherwise, I'd use the specified 5W20. Better fuel economy doesn't equate to less protection. This is a false dichotomy that a few still just can't wrap their head around...
Originally Posted By: JOD
If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30.
Man, that statement takes the cake right there.
If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30.
Man, that statement takes the cake right there.
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Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Mainly residual TBN.
Ultra does trump M1 AFE in that measure.
Is there any better measure of an oil's life in service?
Nope, excellent reply, I was fishing a bit there
As I'm sure you already knew
Mainly residual TBN.
Ultra does trump M1 AFE in that measure.
Is there any better measure of an oil's life in service?
Nope, excellent reply, I was fishing a bit there
Thanks for all the great advice. Now what if I throw in the Amsoils. For example, the 0W-20 Extended Life Synthetic Motor Oil or the 5w-20? How would the Amsoil (their middle XL line) compare to the Ultra and the Mobil 1? Seems the preferred price has gone down since I last checked. Around $5.50/qt.
I am sure the Signature series is much better, but since under warranty following the OLM should not go over 10,000 OCI. Up to 12 months, or 10,000 miles according to Ford.
I am sure the Signature series is much better, but since under warranty following the OLM should not go over 10,000 OCI. Up to 12 months, or 10,000 miles according to Ford.
"If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30"
Is this what happens to the same engine in the countries where the oil spec is 5W30 rather than 5W20?
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Originally Posted By: troyh
"If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30"
Is this what happens to the same engine in the countries where the oil spec is 5W30 rather than 5W20?
I've been on the fence about this issue as well, and I think Mod Motor owners can be rest assured with 5w-20 and here's why.
I'm not sure if this new 5.0 fits in the Modular engine family, but someone at the 4.6L F-150 forums compiled a set of UOAs and extracted the iron and aluminum counts and compared xw20 versus xw30 oils. I calculated the average iron figures and the one for xw30 was higher by almost 8ppm. Aluminum counts were higher by about 2ppm.
I don't know how to attach docs here, so I can e-mail the spreadsheet to you if you're interested.
Now, this "study" is not the end all be all, but this data set coupled with the fact that the engineers at Ford recommend 5w20 is something to think about. Even if they call for 5w20 solely for CAFE reasons, it's not doing your Mod Motor any more harm over a 5w30, IMO.
"If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30"
Is this what happens to the same engine in the countries where the oil spec is 5W30 rather than 5W20?
I've been on the fence about this issue as well, and I think Mod Motor owners can be rest assured with 5w-20 and here's why.
I'm not sure if this new 5.0 fits in the Modular engine family, but someone at the 4.6L F-150 forums compiled a set of UOAs and extracted the iron and aluminum counts and compared xw20 versus xw30 oils. I calculated the average iron figures and the one for xw30 was higher by almost 8ppm. Aluminum counts were higher by about 2ppm.
I don't know how to attach docs here, so I can e-mail the spreadsheet to you if you're interested.
Now, this "study" is not the end all be all, but this data set coupled with the fact that the engineers at Ford recommend 5w20 is something to think about. Even if they call for 5w20 solely for CAFE reasons, it's not doing your Mod Motor any more harm over a 5w30, IMO.
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Originally Posted By: troyh
"If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30"
Is this what happens to the same engine in the countries where the oil spec is 5W30 rather than 5W20?
Unless the basic rules of physics are somehow different in those countries, the answer would be "yes". Except is Australia, of course; the oil swirls around in a different direction over there, so all bets are off....
There are many reasons that go into oil viscosity recommendations in other countries: availability, cost, drain intervals, expected vehicle service life, etc. If you don't live in other countries, I'm not sure why that would be a concern. Personally, I think you'd be best to not worry about the motivations for different countries spec'ing different oils, and worry more about how the oil actually performs in use.
"If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30"
Is this what happens to the same engine in the countries where the oil spec is 5W30 rather than 5W20?
Unless the basic rules of physics are somehow different in those countries, the answer would be "yes". Except is Australia, of course; the oil swirls around in a different direction over there, so all bets are off....
There are many reasons that go into oil viscosity recommendations in other countries: availability, cost, drain intervals, expected vehicle service life, etc. If you don't live in other countries, I'm not sure why that would be a concern. Personally, I think you'd be best to not worry about the motivations for different countries spec'ing different oils, and worry more about how the oil actually performs in use.
Originally Posted By: JOD
Unless the basic rules of physics are somehow different in those countries, the answer would be "yes". Except is Australia, of course; the oil swirls around in a different direction over there, so all bets are off....
Now we know why they specify such heavy oils in Australia. The oil pump would go into a seizure if the oil was spinning in the wrong direction, so a really heavy oil resists that.
That's what I'm going to say next time someone brings up other country's oil specifications.
Unless the basic rules of physics are somehow different in those countries, the answer would be "yes". Except is Australia, of course; the oil swirls around in a different direction over there, so all bets are off....
Now we know why they specify such heavy oils in Australia. The oil pump would go into a seizure if the oil was spinning in the wrong direction, so a really heavy oil resists that.
It -depends- on the usage of the car. I drive my GT pretty agressively on open, twisty roads and rev it up the scale often....(no commuter droning or short trips) so I run PP 5w30...a good compromise between the "normal" 5w20 reccomendation and 5w50 for the Boss IMHO. The Coyote runs great on 5W30.
The engine is crammed into the bay and the tubular headers throw off alot of heat. The "regular" GT does not have a oil/water cooler. Open the hood after a sprited run...the engine is HOT compared to other cars.
If you drive hard, any quality synthetic of reasonably heavier viscosity probably offers better protection, if not, the 5w20 should be fine.
The engine is crammed into the bay and the tubular headers throw off alot of heat. The "regular" GT does not have a oil/water cooler. Open the hood after a sprited run...the engine is HOT compared to other cars.
If you drive hard, any quality synthetic of reasonably heavier viscosity probably offers better protection, if not, the 5w20 should be fine.
Originally Posted By: Drew2000
It -depends- on the usage of the car. I drive my GT pretty agressively on open, twisty roads and rev it up the scale often....(no commuter droning or short trips) so I run PP 5w30...a good compromise between the "normal" 5w20 reccomendation and 5w50 for the Boss IMHO. The Coyote runs great on 5W30.
The engine is crammed into the bay and the tubular headers throw off alot of heat. The "regular" GT does not have a oil/water cooler. Open the hood after a sprited run...the engine is HOT compared to other cars.
If you drive hard, any quality synthetic of reasonably heavier viscosity probably offers better protection, if not, the 5w20 should be fine.
I run the same oil in my Mustang . It's [censored] hot here during the summer and doesn't get below 40* during the winter. Run the car hard and the heat the motor puts off is unlike anything else I have ever owned. Beside that my cam chains make less noise with the 5/30 PP.
It -depends- on the usage of the car. I drive my GT pretty agressively on open, twisty roads and rev it up the scale often....(no commuter droning or short trips) so I run PP 5w30...a good compromise between the "normal" 5w20 reccomendation and 5w50 for the Boss IMHO. The Coyote runs great on 5W30.
The engine is crammed into the bay and the tubular headers throw off alot of heat. The "regular" GT does not have a oil/water cooler. Open the hood after a sprited run...the engine is HOT compared to other cars.
If you drive hard, any quality synthetic of reasonably heavier viscosity probably offers better protection, if not, the 5w20 should be fine.
I run the same oil in my Mustang . It's [censored] hot here during the summer and doesn't get below 40* during the winter. Run the car hard and the heat the motor puts off is unlike anything else I have ever owned. Beside that my cam chains make less noise with the 5/30 PP.
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: troyh
I live in the mild area of Idaho, near Boise.....The Ultra looks good to me because I get basically free after MIR.
there's your answer. Go for the Ultra
Originally Posted By: troyh
My buddy told me the M! 0W-20 was a much better oil and uses this in his Mustang (year older).
Your buddy may be a great guy and a scholar in his field, but he doesn't know much about lubricants... The oils are very similar, and are both premium lubricants. If the lower MRV specs aren't important to you and you can get a better deal on the Ultra, I'd say it's the clear choice.
If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30. Otherwise, I'd use the specified 5W20. Better fuel economy doesn't equate to less protection. This is a false dichotomy that a few still just can't wrap their head around...
I can understand why 5W30 may give you inferior start-up protection and higher oil temps, but I would like to hear the explanation for seal wear and film strength.
Originally Posted By: troyh
I live in the mild area of Idaho, near Boise.....The Ultra looks good to me because I get basically free after MIR.
there's your answer. Go for the Ultra
Originally Posted By: troyh
My buddy told me the M! 0W-20 was a much better oil and uses this in his Mustang (year older).
Your buddy may be a great guy and a scholar in his field, but he doesn't know much about lubricants... The oils are very similar, and are both premium lubricants. If the lower MRV specs aren't important to you and you can get a better deal on the Ultra, I'd say it's the clear choice.
If you want less protection at start-up, more wear on all of your oil seals, oil that runs hotter and less film strength at the top of the piston, then go with the 5W30. Otherwise, I'd use the specified 5W20. Better fuel economy doesn't equate to less protection. This is a false dichotomy that a few still just can't wrap their head around...
I can understand why 5W30 may give you inferior start-up protection and higher oil temps, but I would like to hear the explanation for seal wear and film strength.
JHZR2
Staff member
Im not sure I understand why in the mild climate of Boise (its all dependent upon minimum startup temps), the 5w-30 would give inferior start-up protection. A 0w oil isnt necessarily flowing better at temperatures far from -35.
Heck, at 40C, straight weights are generally less viscous than their multigrade siblings.
Heck, at 40C, straight weights are generally less viscous than their multigrade siblings.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
I can understand why 5W30 may give you inferior start-up protection and higher oil temps, but I would like to hear the explanation for seal wear and film strength.
The film strength argument is detailed here more thoroughly and eloquently than I could ever do. The chart on Fig 9 and the relevant comments give a good explanation as the the theorized mechanisms, along with some real-world test results.
As far as seal wear, the mechanism is simple: friction and pressure create wear. This paper here goes into the details, as do a couple of others. That one isn't in the public domain, but if you're really interested you can find the relevant passages in some other published papers; but basically, any time the fluid friction layer is more than necessary, pressure is created--along with wear. The ideal viscosity for seals is "as thin as possible, as long as it's not leaking".
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Im not sure I understand why in the mild climate of Boise (its all dependent upon minimum startup temps), the 5w-30 would give inferior start-up protection. A 0w oil isnt necessarily flowing better at temperatures far from -35.
Who said it would? Comparing a 5W30 to a 0W30 in a mild climate? Sure, there's not much difference. Comparing a 0W30 or 5W30 to a 5W20 is a different matter though--the 30W oils are going to be quite a bit thicker at start-up.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Heck, at 40C, straight weights are generally less viscous than their multigrade siblings.
umm...huh? You may want to give that one a re-think.
I can understand why 5W30 may give you inferior start-up protection and higher oil temps, but I would like to hear the explanation for seal wear and film strength.
The film strength argument is detailed here more thoroughly and eloquently than I could ever do. The chart on Fig 9 and the relevant comments give a good explanation as the the theorized mechanisms, along with some real-world test results.
As far as seal wear, the mechanism is simple: friction and pressure create wear. This paper here goes into the details, as do a couple of others. That one isn't in the public domain, but if you're really interested you can find the relevant passages in some other published papers; but basically, any time the fluid friction layer is more than necessary, pressure is created--along with wear. The ideal viscosity for seals is "as thin as possible, as long as it's not leaking".
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Im not sure I understand why in the mild climate of Boise (its all dependent upon minimum startup temps), the 5w-30 would give inferior start-up protection. A 0w oil isnt necessarily flowing better at temperatures far from -35.
Who said it would? Comparing a 5W30 to a 0W30 in a mild climate? Sure, there's not much difference. Comparing a 0W30 or 5W30 to a 5W20 is a different matter though--the 30W oils are going to be quite a bit thicker at start-up.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Heck, at 40C, straight weights are generally less viscous than their multigrade siblings.
umm...huh? You may want to give that one a re-think.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Im not sure I understand why in the mild climate of Boise (its all dependent upon minimum startup temps), the 5w-30 would give inferior start-up protection. A 0w oil isnt necessarily flowing better at temperatures far from -35.
Who said it would? Comparing a 5W30 to a 0W30 in a mild climate? Sure, there's not much difference. Comparing a 0W30 or 5W30 to a 5W20 is a different matter though--the 30W oils are going to be quite a bit thicker at start-up.
First, cold start viscosity... Let's look at some PDS's
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140003633138_201008270049.pdf
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=310594&docFormat=PDF
Even a quick glance shows that there can be a fairly good temperature dependence and variability.
PP CCS viscosity at -35 is superior in 5w-20 than 0w-20. And while in the pp grades, the 5w30 is slightly more viscous in CCS than 5w-20, then look at the havoline one. The 5w-30 is indeed less viscous. So there is a product variation difference that makes no one thing the rule (plus 5w-30s in my examples have higher hths, lower volatility, etc - consider the full picture).
I think you may be right about the 40C bit, as I may have been comparing SAE 30 with 15w-40. They can be used interchangeably at high temps in my MB diesels.
But still things aren't all as they initially appear, and all the armchair lube-analysis anyone ever wanted to do is for naught if the trade of criticality is missed...
For a mustang, I'd be more considerate of volatility and hths than a few cp at -30C.
And until someone does a rheological study at realistic intermediate temperatures, which is going to flow better is highly speculative.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Im not sure I understand why in the mild climate of Boise (its all dependent upon minimum startup temps), the 5w-30 would give inferior start-up protection. A 0w oil isnt necessarily flowing better at temperatures far from -35.
Who said it would? Comparing a 5W30 to a 0W30 in a mild climate? Sure, there's not much difference. Comparing a 0W30 or 5W30 to a 5W20 is a different matter though--the 30W oils are going to be quite a bit thicker at start-up.
First, cold start viscosity... Let's look at some PDS's
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140003633138_201008270049.pdf
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=310594&docFormat=PDF
Even a quick glance shows that there can be a fairly good temperature dependence and variability.
PP CCS viscosity at -35 is superior in 5w-20 than 0w-20. And while in the pp grades, the 5w30 is slightly more viscous in CCS than 5w-20, then look at the havoline one. The 5w-30 is indeed less viscous. So there is a product variation difference that makes no one thing the rule (plus 5w-30s in my examples have higher hths, lower volatility, etc - consider the full picture).
I think you may be right about the 40C bit, as I may have been comparing SAE 30 with 15w-40. They can be used interchangeably at high temps in my MB diesels.
But still things aren't all as they initially appear, and all the armchair lube-analysis anyone ever wanted to do is for naught if the trade of criticality is missed...
For a mustang, I'd be more considerate of volatility and hths than a few cp at -30C.
And until someone does a rheological study at realistic intermediate temperatures, which is going to flow better is highly speculative.
The more I read into this, the more confusing it becomes.
My problem lies here with regards as to what grade of oil to use.
Many suggest to follow Ford's spec of the 5W20. If not it seems that there could be major problems. Going from a 20 to a 30, although not much, seems to alter opinions a great deal. Some say that the 30 would help out over the 20, yet others say that it would almost cause catastrophe with the seals, and would produce a much higher heat.
Although I do not have the GT, I do drive the V6 pretty hard at times. That is why I bought a Mustang. I do not drive it the same as when I am driving my mother's Cadillac. And yes, the Mustang gets hot. I have added a CAI and the tuning to remove Ford's stock tune, and replaced this with a performance and race tune removing the Ford restrictive engine software.
Then I read about how Ford has switched to 5W20 to meet the CAFE requirements and nothing more. This makes sense to me when you hear that they "backspec" 5W20 to THE SAME engine that initially was to use 5W30. Secondly, when other places spec the 5W30 for the same car rather than the 5W20 why is that? It is no hotter there and the internal engine is the exact same. Some suggest it is due to NOT having the CAFE requirement.
Leads me to is the 5W20 the better suited oil? Or is this because Ford wants to increase the mileage output through the use of a thinner oil? Where does reality here lie?
So if I were to use, say Amsoil or M1 0W30, would it offer better, same, or worse protection (or harm) than if I used 5W20 or 0W20, given the fact that I do at times drive the car hard sometimes redline shifting?
Edited to add: Some areas of Idaho have very cold subzero temperatures throughout the winter. I never go to those areas. The lows are perhaps high teens into the 20's in this area. Since I have a 9-5 (and sometimes later) the temperature has warmed into the 30's-40's usually, so cold starts are really not more of an issue than most other places.
My problem lies here with regards as to what grade of oil to use.
Many suggest to follow Ford's spec of the 5W20. If not it seems that there could be major problems. Going from a 20 to a 30, although not much, seems to alter opinions a great deal. Some say that the 30 would help out over the 20, yet others say that it would almost cause catastrophe with the seals, and would produce a much higher heat.
Although I do not have the GT, I do drive the V6 pretty hard at times. That is why I bought a Mustang. I do not drive it the same as when I am driving my mother's Cadillac. And yes, the Mustang gets hot. I have added a CAI and the tuning to remove Ford's stock tune, and replaced this with a performance and race tune removing the Ford restrictive engine software.
Then I read about how Ford has switched to 5W20 to meet the CAFE requirements and nothing more. This makes sense to me when you hear that they "backspec" 5W20 to THE SAME engine that initially was to use 5W30. Secondly, when other places spec the 5W30 for the same car rather than the 5W20 why is that? It is no hotter there and the internal engine is the exact same. Some suggest it is due to NOT having the CAFE requirement.
Leads me to is the 5W20 the better suited oil? Or is this because Ford wants to increase the mileage output through the use of a thinner oil? Where does reality here lie?
So if I were to use, say Amsoil or M1 0W30, would it offer better, same, or worse protection (or harm) than if I used 5W20 or 0W20, given the fact that I do at times drive the car hard sometimes redline shifting?
Edited to add: Some areas of Idaho have very cold subzero temperatures throughout the winter. I never go to those areas. The lows are perhaps high teens into the 20's in this area. Since I have a 9-5 (and sometimes later) the temperature has warmed into the 30's-40's usually, so cold starts are really not more of an issue than most other places.
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Ford bases it's oil recommendation on using Motorcraft 5W-20 synblend or equivalent oil in their factory tuned vehicles. It's a safe bet for them considering the average vehicle owner and it gives them some brownie points with the EPA. Nothing wrong with a quality 5W-20 oil synblend in a more modern Ford engines. But using a full synthetic like Amsoil or Mobil 1 0W-30 will most likely give you as good if not better cold cranking than the synblend 5W-20 and give a higher HTHS for hard driving situations. I'm currently using the original Castrol Edge 5W-30 in my wife's 2005 Explorer with the 4.6 and it runs just fine. I'm coming up to 8,500 OCI. I'll change it for the Mobil 1 0W-20 I have on hand. Unless you have some sort of oil viscosity sensitive engine device, ie variable valve timing, a true synthetic 0W-30 will work ok.
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