ZINC Removed From Newer Oils

[JimSLC]

I recently posted the question below on the Jaguar Club of North America web site and received a variety of recommendations and comments, including a recommendation for Brad Penn Oil. I'd like to see "Bob's" comments on the need for ZINC or other additives, and any oil recommendations.

JCNA Forum Post -
My local Jaguar mechanic (Italian and British car repairs since 1975) brought up an issue about oil brands and viscosities. He said he always used Castrol in the past but now days most oils have had a lot of the additives removed as they can contaminate the catalytic converters on newer cars. He said the additives protected the camshafts and tappets, but aren't needed with the roller tappets and cams used in many modern cars. He has heard of people having problems with wear to the camshaft caused by the newer oils. He now often uses Shell Rotella T 15W40, which is actually a diesel oil.

I did a little research and read that the additives were zinc and phosphorus and that the oil ratings changed from SL to SM for gasoline engines and from CI-4 to CJ-4 for diesel engines when the additives were removed. (Some of the Rotella oils have converted to the CJ-4 formulation but the 30W and 15W40 in the 2.5 gal jug are still CI-4).

The plate on my car lists the following summertime oils; Mobil A, Castrol XL, Shell X100 30, Esso Extra 20W30, BP Energol 30, Duckham NOL 30 and Texaco Havoline Advanced 30. Obviously, several of these aren't even available and I don't know what specs. have changed.

I'd like to know if other owners of older Jags have heard about this, if any have had camshaft problems, and more importantly what brand, type, and weight of oil they are using.

Thanks,

Jim K
68 E-Type OTS
Salt Lake City, UT

 

[bepperb]

Search ZDDP on this site and you could read for days.

In short, yes in 2004 the switch to SM reduced the zddp in oil which may be bad for a small percentage of autos. It sounds like you have one of those. Most diesel oils (HDEO's) will take care of this, or some boutique oils like Brad Penn.

 

[cmf]

ZDDP has not been removed. Every modern motor oil contains it AFAIK, and if a motor oil doesn't contain it you'd have to specifically look for it.

bepperb pretty much answered your question, but to assist in your research:

-The additive is ZDDP as he said, and API SM limited the phosphorous content, not zinc (although some people call ZDDP just "zinc" for some reason). ZDDP is zinc dithiophosphate and it contains phosphorous and zinc, as well as sulfur, oxygen and alkyl chains. What is important is that the limit on phosphorous limits the amount of ZDDP.
-SM and SN have a max phosphorous content of .08%
-SL and SJ have a max phosphorous content of .10%
-SH has a max phosphorous content of .12% (most manufacturer's self-limited to .10% during this period though)

Your car was produced a decent amount of time before the API put any limit on phosphorous content. I would suggest running a HDEO in it.

Also it should be noted that CJ-4 limits the phosphorous content to .12%. It is not removed.

 

[crw]

I was recently trying to research this (internet research, I know) and the conclusion I came to is that while ZDDP levels have been reduced, they are still high enough to protect older engines. Keep in mind that "when this problem was solved in the 1960's", the levels used then were no higher than the new levels now. Or, so I remember. I wish I could find more info.

Be assured that oil manufacturers do care about this, and are quite aware of the situation:

http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoroil/car_care/askmobil/Zinc_Motor_Oils.aspx

We all want more detail, of course. Perhaps someone will chime in.

There are always those with engines that need a rebuild, and then they attribute the problems to new oil. There is not necessarily a connection.

 

[Ken2]

If your engine needs a 10W-30 oil, use a diesel 10W-30. If it uses a 5W-40 or 15W-40, use one of the diesel engine oils. Any brand, they're all about the same, but get one of the many dual rated both CJ-4 and SM. Drive fast and sleep well.

Quote:
I did a little research and read that the additives were zinc and phosphorus and that the oil ratings changed from SL to SM for gasoline engines and from CI-4 to CJ-4 for diesel engines when the additives were removed. (Some of the Rotella oils have converted to the CJ-4 formulation but the 30W and 15W40 in the 2.5 gal jug are still CI-4).
So much wrong in this statement. Your research is very faulty. There are many more additives in motor oil than just ZDDP, however that is the cheapest effective antiwear and antioxidant additive. Others do as well at higher cost. As well said above, it has NOT been removed. There are few CI-4 oils, and that designation does not guarantee a level of ZDDP, it just offers a ceiling. Many have no more ZDDP than the CJ-4 oils, which have plenty.

 

[m6pwr]

There is one oil I know of that is zinc free: FUCHS Titan GT1 5w30. FUCHS touts the fact that is has no zinc: http://www.thedieselstore.com/template/productOutput.php?partNum=VWA452491A&VehNum=1117792. It is I believe used as the factory fill for the BMW 335d diesel car, or at least a FUCHS oil like it. There have been several BITOG members with this car that have posted their OCAs and have been surprised to find virtually no zinc in the report. The oil does however have phosphorous which I believe is the active anti-wear ingredient. As the data sheet says, the FUCHS zinc free oil is particularly good for modern turbo cars with various after-treatment devices where deposits may be a problem. But I don't think you're going to be using this oil in Jag.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: crw
Keep in mind that "when this problem was solved in the 1960's", the levels used then were no higher than the new levels now. Or, so I remember. I wish I could find more info.


You are correct on that point. I have a published reference to this somewhere; finding it is the trick, as you point out. The 1960s PCMOs definitely did not have boatloads of ZDDP in them, and were on par with what we have now.

As others have mentioned, there are other options. There are ZDDP additives, which can be expensive. There are HDEOs. There are other viscosities and non-ILSAC varieties out there. There are boutique synthetics and conventionals. The HDEO is probably the most cost effective approach and has a suitable viscosity for a lot of older engines, anyhow.

 

[A_Harman]

Since the Jaguar manual recommended 30-weights for summer use, I wouldn't recommend using HDEO 40-weights. Valvoline VR1 conventional comes in 10w30 grade, and Brad Penn makes a 10w30 synthetic blend. VR1 has 1300ppm of Phosphorous, Brad Penn has 1400ppm.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Since the Jaguar manual recommended 30-weights for summer use, I wouldn't recommend using HDEO 40-weights. Valvoline VR1 conventional comes in 10w30 grade, and Brad Penn makes a 10w30 synthetic blend. VR1 has 1300ppm of Phosphorous, Brad Penn has 1400ppm.


There are enough 10w-30 HDEOs out there, too. Some of the high mileage oils might also have more zinc, particularly if they're not resource conserving.

 

[dparm]

Mobil 1 Racing oils also have very high ZDDP levels (>1400ppm).

There are some motorcycle oils like Maxima that have >2000ppm.

 

[Izb]

What about article http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm ?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: crw
Keep in mind that "when this problem was solved in the 1960's", the levels used then were no higher than the new levels now. Or, so I remember. I wish I could find more info.

You are correct on that point. I have a published reference to this somewhere; finding it is the trick, as you point out. The 1960s PCMOs definitely did not have boatloads of ZDDP in them, and were on par with what we have now.

So there is no need for the OP to go out of his way to use a HDEO. Take advantage of the advances in lubrication that have occurred over the past 40 years and use a high VI synthetic oil. I'd suggest any premium 5W-30 like M1 or Pennzoil Platnium or Ultra.

 

[pavelow]

Run Rotella syn 5W40 or Rotella syn blend 10W30 and don't worry about it. Both oils are readily available at all Walmarts.

 

[vintageant]

For more opinions on oils for older engines:

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf

 

[abycat]

valvolene synpower has a ton of zinc.

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: m6pwr
There is one oil I know of that is zinc free: FUCHS Titan GT1 5w30. FUCHS touts the fact that is has no zinc: http://www.thedieselstore.com/template/productOutput.php?partNum=VWA452491A&VehNum=1117792.


I think you are mistaken.

I believe it is only the FUCHS 0W20 that is zinc-free. The link you provided is a bit confusing as it seems to indicate that their 5W30 has no zinc when in fact they are actually referring to the 0W20.

 

[Merkava_4]

One option is to use Joe Gibbs racing oil. It's formulated for non-roller engines that need zinc and phosphorus.

 

[CMMeadAM]

Amsoil HDD 5W30 has 1380 PPM of ZDDP, 3.5 HTHS which is a superb oil. We've been using it for years in our collector
muscle cars and have been more then satisfied with it's performance documented with high quality UOA's wich are far from the $20 breed mosr waste their money with on this site.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Amsoil HDD 5W30 has 1380 PPM of ZDDP, 3.5 HTHS which is a superb oil. We've been using it for years in our collector
muscle cars and have been more then satisfied with it's performance documented with high quality UOA's wich are far from the $20 breed mosr waste their money with on this site.


Good recommendation. Here's a link: Amsoil HDD 5W-30

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
One option is to use Joe Gibbs racing oil. It's formulated for non-roller engines that need zinc and phosphorus.


A year's worth of oil changes on that stuff minus a year's worth of oil changes on QSGB SN/GF-5 could pay for a new set of cam and lifters in my truck.