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#2403474 - 10/11/11 10:33 PM ZDDP Level For Solid Flat Tappet Cam
Ned_Loh Offline


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 12
Loc: at the track
Any suggestions on minimimum content of ZDDP should be for a fairly aggressive solid flat tappet cam and ‘heavy’ valve springs? What’s the maximum level before problems (if any)?

The net, where data is available, seems to show oils with ZDDP between 1000 ppm and 2000 ppm. It’s interesting to note that one ‘cam break in’ oil additive brough the level up to 5000ppm.

Based in Australia. I have posted this on another forum I read, but a lot of net oil searches lead me to this site.


Cheers.

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#2403488 - 10/11/11 10:48 PM Re: ZDDP Level For Solid Flat Tappet Cam [Re: Ned_Loh]
chubbs1 Offline


Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 4574
Loc: Merritt Island FL, USA
Most of your high ZDDP oils do have between 1000-2000ppm. There would be no harm in using an oil with those numbers and there is a point of diminishing returns. After break-in there really is no need to use special additives to keep ZDDP levels beyond 1500ppm. Hope this helped some.
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#2403493 - 10/11/11 10:52 PM Re: ZDDP Level For Solid Flat Tappet Cam [Re: Ned_Loh]
Knox Offline


Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 263
Loc: Kansas, USA
For brake-in i'd use a conventional oil with a cam additive or just a purpose made break-in oil.

I don't know of any cam specs to name off, it depends more so on the effective spring pressure and load on the cam/lifer surface.

Some high mileage oils (about half) and most (if not all) Diesel (HeavyDutyMotoOil), Have phosphorous and zinc over 1000+.

Only down side i could think of is a dead catalytic converter, but more then likely if you have a mild cam and flat tappets, you don't have one.
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#2403661 - 10/12/11 08:08 AM Re: ZDDP Level For Solid Flat Tappet Cam [Re: Ned_Loh]
A_Harman Offline


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 4473
Loc: Michigan
Check out joegibbsdriven.com and read up on their break-in system of assembly grease, break-in oil, and high-zddp oil to protect sliding cam followers during the first few hours of running.

Another good web site to check out is zddplus.com.

A maximum level of 1800ppm is considered safe before the zddp can start to cause corrosion of some cam materials. Mobil 1 racing oils have 1750ppm. Valvoline VR1 conventional has 1300. Brad Penn oils have 1400ppm. Redline racing oils have 2500ppm.

Other good things to do when breaking in your sliding-follower cam are to run the engine with low load valve springs for the first few hours, and then switch to the high load springs later. In the first few hours of running, don't let the engine idle for long periods of time. It is best to keep the engine speed at 2500rpm or above to assure good lubrication of the lobes and to offset some of the spring load with dynamic load.
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#2404568 - 10/13/11 01:36 AM Re: ZDDP Level For Solid Flat Tappet Cam [Re: A_Harman]
Ned_Loh Offline


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 12
Loc: at the track
Thanks for the replies. FWIW – race application. No cat converter. Wet sump (6.5L + oil cooler and lines). I have only installed the outer springs and will fit the inners after the cam is run in. I will be using this oil to run it in (ZDDP 1600ppm):

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/specialty-automotive-products/running-in_oil

So it looks like I am looking for an oil with ZDDP of say 1400ppm to 1800ppm.

From my net surfing it’s looking confusing...

Brad Penn – Inconsistent lab results
Valvoline VR1 – Inconsistent lab results
Royal Purple XPR – Too much ZDDP
Redline – Too much ZDDP
Penrite – Not enough ZDDP
Castrol Edge – Not Enough ZDDP
Pennzoil – Might be ok?
Amsoil - ???
Others - ???

Will check out Joe Gibbs...

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#2404663 - 10/13/11 07:52 AM Re: ZDDP Level For Solid Flat Tappet Cam [Re: Ned_Loh]
A_Harman Offline


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 4473
Loc: Michigan
The Red Line street oils have lower zddp, in the range of 1500ppm, if I'm remembering correctly.
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2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck

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#2404774 - 10/13/11 09:55 AM Re: ZDDP Level For Solid Flat Tappet Cam [Re: Ned_Loh]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11782
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Ned_Loh

From my net surfing it’s looking confusing...

Brad Penn – Inconsistent lab results
Valvoline VR1 – Inconsistent lab results
Royal Purple XPR – Too much ZDDP
Redline – Too much ZDDP
Penrite – Not enough ZDDP
Castrol Edge – Not Enough ZDDP
Pennzoil – Might be ok?
Amsoil - ???
Others - ???

Will check out Joe Gibbs...


What makes you think that Redline and Royal Purple have too much ZDDP? I believe that Joe Gibbs has substantially more than either of them, and at a far, far higher price. There are also plenty of HDEOs, synthetic and conventional, that would do the trick.
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2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
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#2405491 - 10/14/11 02:11 AM Re: ZDDP Level For Solid Flat Tappet Cam [Re: Garak]
Ned_Loh Offline


Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 12
Loc: at the track
Originally Posted By: Garak
What makes you think that Redline and Royal Purple have too much ZDDP? I believe that Joe Gibbs has substantially more than either of them, and at a far, far higher price. There are also plenty of HDEOs, synthetic and conventional, that would do the trick.


I'm open to any specific oils you may suggest???

I was only going on what I've seen on the net. The redline website shows "Each of these products has no less than 2200ppm of zinc and phosphorus for antiwear" for their racing oil, and they don't disclose for their road oil. Royal purple don't disclose anything on their website.

I am considering mixing Redline racing oil with something else to meet my needs. (& reduce cost a bit as it is VERY expensive here in Australia).

Cheers.

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#2405532 - 10/14/11 06:16 AM Re: ZDDP Level For Solid Flat Tappet Cam [Re: Ned_Loh]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11782
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I used to have some figures for Royal Purple. They do disclose more than what actually appears on their website. Product data sheets, oddly enough, don't appear on their website, at least not easily, and you can find them by Google. XPR is their racing oil, and HPS is their street/sport oil. They also have SN/GF-5 rated oil.

2200 ppm of ZDDP is a little high in my view, to the point of being corrosive. I would assume that the "normal" RedLine stuff would have an elevated level of ZDDP in the ranges you're looking for.

Royal Purple (HPS or the older stock SL versions) would also do the trick. They won't have corrosive amounts of ZDDP. Both regular RedLine and Royal Purple HPS or SL rated oils should have ZDDP levels that were considered acceptable in the API SL days.

M1's racing oil is also rather high in ZDDP, a little higher than I prefer, but within the ranges you've specified. 1100 or 1200 to 1500 is my preferred range for such motors. You can also get that out of most dual rated HDEOs. I don't know exactly what's available in Australia, but you should be able to find a suitable HDEO conventional in 10w-30 or 15w-40 or synthetic in 0w-40 or 5w-40. I believe Doug Hillary, in Australia, uses Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40 in CI-4+ API rating, probably with SL as the gasoline rating.

Up here, a lot of classic performance car enthusiasts have used API SL Royal Purple for the ZDDP levels. My view, though, is that synthetic oil in general is a very expensive option for a carbureted engine.

There's another issue to consider. Are you going to only be racing or is it something you're going to drive around? Most racing oils do not have much in the way of detergents, so they have to be changed more often. If they're expensive, racing synthetics, that merely compounds the problem. The street lines of Royal Purple (which really includes HPS and the old stock SL if still available) will have plenty of detergent, whereas XPR and other dedicated racing oils may have much less. They're all great oils, but costly and less durable from a carbureted daily driver standpoint.

That's why I like the conventional HDEOs. There's enough ZDDP and detergent, and if you're changing the oil regularly because of fuel dilution, at least you're not spending huge dollars on the oil in the first place.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#2406418 - 10/15/11 06:37 AM Re: ZDDP Level For Solid Flat Tappet Cam [Re: Ned_Loh]
Cujet Offline


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 4358
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Don't forget that oil viscosity is important too. Clearly a very thin oil with mega ZDDP will not protect the cam and lifters as well as a heavier oil. As I often mention, Lycoming aircraft engines use 50 viscosity oils. Whether it's 15W-50 semi syn (seems much thicker than any 15-50 I've ever seen) or straight Aeroshell 100. One reason that Lycoming uses oils this heavy is for cam protection. Lycomings have a single cam lobe that operates 2 lifters on each pair of cylinders (2 of these "special" lobes on a 4 cyl). Aircraft engines don't use any ZDDP.

Those with experimental aircraft and Lycoming engines who try thinner automotive oils end up with wiped out cam lobes, every time.



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