Yearly OCI approaching. Oil shopping.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Oct 16, 2010
Messages
2,600
Location
california
The engine is an LA 318 with a roller Cam and throttle body injection in a Dodge B250 Fullsize Van with a 3.55 rear and an A500 Overdrive/lockup transmission. OCI's have been yearly or a maximum of 5 k miles, usually less.

Engine Rebuilt, questionably, 34k miles ago.
New Pistons are stamped 040.
Smooth running. Getting maximum expected MPG. Passing Ca Smog tests with room to spare.
Been running M1 10w 40 for the last 4+ years and 16 k miles The M1 silenced 1 to 5 seconds of lifter ticking on start up. VWB and Castrol GTX 10w 40 previous to this. No sludge or varnish issues, at least under the valve covers.
002copy-Copy.jpg


Been using Purolator Classic 30001 filters since first OCI after rebuild. This is an oversized filter compared to what all the parts books list. I do have some some strong magnets I use on it. They seem to collect a lot of ferrous material.
filtermagnet.jpg



Mostly short trips where the temp gauge does not even reach maximum normal. Usually before parking overnight, it will get to full temp(coolant temp wise) for at least 5 minutes.

I determine full expected engine temperature by seeing the lowest Idle speed oil PSI rather than the coolant temp gauge. 20 to 22 psi is all I can expect at idle, while around town driving. If the oil gets this hot, it does not stay hot for too long.

Occasional longer highway drives account for maybe a maximum 30% of the mileage. Far too much time is spent idling at traffic lights.

Minimum 38 Degrees F, Maximum 90 degrees F Ambient temps. Coastal San Diego.

Current Oil pressures via an Equus mechanical gauge with M1 10 40 HM with 2800 miles on it. The oil is still amber colored.

Cold Idle in (P)ark: 68 PSI oil pressure at 800 rpm. OIL psi never ever reads above this.
Hot Idle in (D)rive: around town driving: 550 rpm-23 psi
Hot Idle right after longer highway drive: 550 rpm-16 psi. Mechanical gauge bounces +/- 2 psi until next red light, then 18 to 20 psi climbing to 23psi depending on ambient temps.
65 mph, level road, ~2100 rpm: 54 PSI +/- 3 psi depending on ambient temp
Max PSI hot, any rpm when accelerating, over 1200 rpm: 63 psi.
Max PSI cold, any rpm: 68 psi.


I am assuming that the oil pump relief valve is set at 68 psi, and that when warm drops to 63 psi. In the 49 weeks since the Last Oil change and 2800 miles, I have added 1/3 quart M1 TDT 5w40.

I've only been visiting BITOG for over a year, but I am thinking since the oil pump bypass PSI is reached at such a relatively low rpm when hot, that my 10w-40 grades of choice, since the rebuild, up to this point, might possibly, be too thick.

Opinions?

I cannot complain about M1's performance in my engine to this point, but I am still a little 'offput' by their insulting Q&A a couple months ago, and am thinking of trying something different.

I do get some valvetrain (spinning camshaft) type noise when I let off the gas but I am apparently the only one who can hear it.

T6 5w 40 has been floating around the background saying "try me!" and then the TDT 5w 40 is trying to say pay 2x as much for me.

I'm not gonna pay boutique oil prices, But with my short trips, I'll pay up to 35$ for 5 quarts for some combination of group 3/4/5 that makes me all warm and fuzzy, and keeps my lifters quiet on start up.

I already have another p/classic 30001 ready for install.

Other possibly relevant information:

I replaced the Camshaft and lifters myself 14k miles after the rebuild, apparently the rebuilders just put new lifters on the old roller cam.

DSC06381.jpg


I also replaced the timing chain with a Cloyes while I had it open:
timingchains.jpg


They also used steel freeze plugs, some of which I have already had to replace, so I do question what other corners they cut.

During this OCI, I might decide to leave California, and Tow a sub 2500 lb trailer across the country.

Any recommendations on the oil weight, and brands, that will make both me, and my engine, all warm and fuzzy inside?
 
IMO the 40 weight you're running is a bit thick for your driving habits. With the short trips and not reaching full oil temp. regularly, I'd go with something along the lines of QSUD 5w-30, which is about $20 at wally in the jug. If you want to stick to Mobil 1, 5w-30 regular or HM. If you're looking to go HDEO, Rotella 10w-30 or T5 semi-syn.
49.gif
 
That is one CLEAN 318! If you have AutoZone in your area and access to a VIN from an '06 or newer vehicle, that $25 rebate off Pennzoil Ultra or $20 off Platinum for the Engine Guarantee is hard to beat. The QSUD at AAP for $3.99/qt. is a steal too. If that motor is rated for 5W30 you'll pick up a little MPG going that way.
 
Originally Posted By: pbm
I think that 318 would be a perfect candidate for GC 0w30 annual changes.

I concur. Works for me in my F250. 1 year, 5k OCI is perfect for this oil in nearly any climate. Your cross country trip with a trailer will be well served by this oil.
 
My personal method is to use what I can find on sale...and I got M1 TDT 5W40 for .98/Qt the other day...that's what will be going into some of my cars on the next change...

Now, in your case, that's one clean engine...and the M1 has been what kept it clean and quieted a lifter tick...so...why change?

Seriously, with your OCI, a few bucks one way or the other once a year? I would pick the one that you like best, the M1 has been working great...so why not stick with it? Who cares what corporate double-speak they put out...I care about how well the product works...

Now, I concur with your analysis that you're running an oil that's a bit heavy...how about the M1 HM 10W30?
 
For those short trips and with such a low psi limit I'd agree on the drop to an xW30. Since it doesn't really get cold go with a 5W30 due to the short trips. Now you just have to pick a favorite brand.
 
I thought you guys would be a little more exited about an oil recommendation when OIL PSI and rpms are listed at cold and hot engine temps.
smile.gif


At 172k miles I had the engine rebuilt. I was passing through Ventura California when oil and fuel consumption increased, power decreased, and some new noises were emanating from the engine. The place I had rebuild it was one of the few nearby to where I could stay with friends. A compression test indicated 2 adjacent cylinders were low and equal. They found this when they magnafluxed the heads.
crackedhead.jpg


I stopped by occasionally during the rebuild.
boredhoned318.jpg


Since the clean engine photos did excite you, this is 14k miles after the rebuild, when I swapped in a new roller cam and lifters myself. VWB or castrol gtx only to this point. Not sure what the rebuilders used, but I got it out of there at 500 miles as instructed.
DSC06427.jpg


I have to admit going thinner that 10w 40 scares me a little due to the thicker is better mentality that was drilled into my head previous to my joining this forum. I also get a little nervous when I see less than 20 psi at hot idle, but I'm working on it.

Some info not included in my OP is that when the oil is fresh in the crankcase, for the last 3 OCI's, after a longer highway drive, at idle, the oil psi is 4 psi higher than now at 49 weeks and nearly 3 k miles, so either some shearing or fuel dilution is going on with the M1 10 40 hm, and I do wonder about M1's 5w30 and 10w30 resistance to shearing.

I can not be bothered with rebates and will not buy a product if I have to mail off a bunch of information and hope for money in the mail.

Pretty much the only reason I goto Wally world is for a 5 quart jug of M1. I really like the 5 quarts jugs cause that is my oil capacity, and it makes it easy to recycle the used oil in a leak proof container. But I will buy individual quarts if I were to find something I like.

5w 30 is listed in my 1989 owner's manual, but for 32 degrees f and below only. 10w 30 for 0 degrees and above. 15w-40 for 10 degs f and above, straight 30 weight for 20 and above. It also says SAE 10 w 40 and 10 w 50 are not recommended for use in Dodge trucks. Conform to API SG/CD, but it also say so change filter every second oil change.
 
What the heck is this? Is this part of a gasket that tell into the chain or is this physical damage? It's hard to tell from the picture. At least for me. Snip from your pic:
Whatisthis.jpg
 
It was not physical damage, I did not notice that flake until I uploaded the photo to my computer, but it is either a flake of carbon/ gasket material, or something it picked up from my workbench.
When I replaced the camshaft, the timing set I ordered had a chain a couple links too short,
DSC06419.jpg

and pressed for time and money, I put the old one back in, as it only had 14k miles anyway.

Just last fall I had a coolant leak due to a water pump bolt that broke in the block, so I replaced it and the entire cooling system then, and that is when that photo is taken, with about 34 k miles on the chain

That timing chain had no more slop than the Cloyes I replaced it with
 
Last edited:
Looks like the Mobil 1 10W40 is working well so far. If you are set on changing brands Castrol 0W30 or 10W40 should work just as well.
 
Hi wrcsixeight,

Yes I also think you're running a heavier oil than necessary with the M1 10W-40.

IIRC, you mentioned you're seeing 68 psi at high rev's when accelerating with the oil hot. Since you've established that is the bypass limit for you're oil pump (sounds about right) then that's a sure fire indicator that you're running a thicker than necessary oil. When the engine oil is up to temperature you should be able to use maximum rev's without going into bypass mode.

I'd suggest M1 5W-30 or any premium 5W-30 like PP or PU.
As long as you've got 15 psi on idle (550 rpm) and at least 50psi at maximum rev's when the oil is at hot as it ever gets, there's no need to use anything heavier.
Since you have an OP gauge there's no need to be concerned about viscosity loss due to oil shear and/or fuel dilution as you can monitor the situation in real time.
 
Thanks all.

Is there an Ideal HTHS number to look for given my oil psi readings at certain rpm's?

I know M1 10w40 HM is 4.2.

If I do use 5 w 30 and find I do not get 15 psi at hot idle 550 rpm should I drop the filter and install a new one prefilled with something thicker?

Does anybody else's mechanical OP gauge bounce at hot idle speed? Mine only does it at a redlight after a long highway drive, when it also reads as low as it ever has. Usually by the next redlight the psi has risen slightly at adle and no more bouncing.

BTW, I installed a T in the line so my stock Dodge OP gauge still works. There is very little correlation between the 2, for about 45 seconds at the same rpm and load
 
HTHSV is best thought of as how thick or thin the oil is at operating temp's and it correlates perfectly with OP.
Since you have an OP gauge it's simple to fine tune your oil's HTHSV to your application. The M1 10W-40 is very heavy with it's HTHSV of 4.2cP. Most 5W-30s like M1 have a HTHSV of 3.1cP so you will see a significant drop in OP with the lighter oil.

If you're concerned that a fill with 5W-30 will not provide adequate hot OP (although I'm sure it will, it is after all the spec' oil for your engine), then only fill the engine to the minimum level on the dip stick leaving room to add a quart of oil at a later date. Drive the van to get the oil good and hot and check the OP on idle and at elevated rev's. On the off chance the OP is too low then you have room to add a quart of heavier oil like M1 10W-40. If the OP is comfortably above the minimum values I gave you could top up with a quart of 5W-20 to bring it down slightly otherwise just add another quart of 5W-30.
 
My aftermarket oil pressure gauge bounces constantly... and it's on a perfect 35K miles engine.... no worries there.

As to oil pressure, I happen to have some factory Dodge manuals. All are late '70s into early '80s and list the minimum oil pressures for the 318 using 30 grade oil. I don't know whether your '89 would be different than an '82 (newest I have), but here they are:

Minimum Pump Pressure @ Idle: 20 psi
Operating Pressure @ 2000 rpm (Engine): 30-80 psi

The engine appears to meet the both pressure specs with 40 grade oil. The "minimum pump pressure" is a little ambiguous. Is "pump pressure" different than "operating pressure (engine)?" If this were my engine, I would be happy with the pressures you show. You didn't say if the cam bearings were replaced during the overhaul. Worn cam bearing often account for a big loss of oil pressure on a high miles engine that has been otherwise overhauled. Also 550 rpm in gear is pretty low. What are the pressures idling in neutral? I suspect the factory spec is for an engine idling in neutral (because they don't say "in gear"). I think you will find the hot pressure substantially higher in neutral.

Remember our credo: "As thin as possible, as thick as necessary." I would certainly advocate a lighter grade oil in most cases. Were I you, if I switched from the 40 grade you use, I would look for an oil on the heavy side of the 30 grade. Maybe even a 10W30 HDEO. If you do find the OP is substantially lower with a 30 grade oil, you may be a candidate for the "as thick as necessary" par of the credo.

Kudos on a thorough presentation of the various factors, some neat and helpful pics and thoughtful questions!
 
Last edited:
Thanks again for all the helpful input. Back in early '04 is when I had the engine rebuilt. I knew much less about things mechanical back then but was very curious, and was there for the tear down.
DSC02421.jpg


When the guy removed the crank and popped off the bearings he said they were in very good condition visually. For this reason, and the fact that they re used my old camshaft(charged me for a reconditioned one), I have to assume they did not replace the camshaft bearings.

There were other factors which really crushed my confidence in the rebuild. There initially was no power, they set the ignition timing incorrectly and were trying to tell me it was my transmission slipping. I refused to accept this, and a turn of the distributor to 10 btdc cured my complaint.

I also doubt they used a high volume or pressure oil pump, as they seemed to cut every corner they could parts wise, like using steel freeze plugs.

I just Dug out my Factory Service Manual.

It lists the minimum warm engine oil PSI at idle(they do not specify neutral or in drive or oil weight) at 6 psi!
At 3000 rpm they list 30 to 80 psi acceptable
And pressure drop caused by a clogged filter 7 to 9 psi.

The 80 psi number makes me think that perhaps my equus gauge is incapable of reading over 68 psi. No oil pump bypass/relief PSI is listed anywhere that I could find.

The FSM also states oil capacity at 4 quarts but add an extra quart if replacing the filter. This I find odd because the stock size filter probably holds a pint. Perhaps the rest of the volume is held in oil the passages above the filter, making the ADBV pretty important on this filter. I do prefill the filter 3/4, but it still takes a second or 2 for pressure to register on startup after a filter change.

With an oversize filter, pouring in 5 quarts brings the oil level to the full mark on the dipstick.

I do know the hot idle speed in drive is around 550, in neutral it is about 650 but lowers to 600 after a minute. I do wonder about the accuracy of the Tach. The FSM states it should idle at 700 rpm. I wonder if I knocked the 4/6/8 cylinder switch from 8 during the very recent installation of the tach.

Again, thanks for the input, and I guess I'll be looking for some deals on a quality 5w30 over the next few weeks.
 
Thought I'd update this thread, and realized I originally put it in the Diesel PCMO section. Apologies.

I went to wal mart for a 5 quart jug of m1 5w30 and was met with empty shelves, and I quickly departed the store emptyhanded.

My friend had 6 quarts of some SM m1 TDT 5w40 which he did not use because he convinced himself he needed a 20w 50 instead, and I gave him 30$ for 6 quarts.

Earlier in this thread I stated that my cold max OP was 68psi with m1 10w40 hm, and when fully hot this was 63 psi. After a long highway drive I'd see 15 to 18 psi Idle at the first redlight, and this would climb back up to the low 20's after a few more traffic lights. The hot idle speed numbers dropped with the more miles/ time on the oil.

With the TDT 5w 40 68 psi is still the maximum number I ever see cold at any rpm, but when the oil is hot, the maximum number I will see has now dropped to 60psi from 63psi. It still finds this number at under 2500 rpm and will add no more psi at any higher rpm.

I do find it interesting that the maximum hot psi has dropped by 3 psi with the tdt 5 40. Can a different viscosity oil effect the pump bypass psi setting? Or am I seeing inaccuracies in my mechanical OP gauge?

Also after a longer highway drive I am seeing 23 psi at idle at the first traffic light, when I expected to see 15 to 16 and even less. The thicker m1 10w 40 hm when fresh was reading these numbers when hot. Right before I changed it under the same conditions it would be in the 15 to 18 range and the needle would be bouncy at idle.

Overall, there is not really any huge difference in PSI at rpm between the 2 oils, just the 3 psi hot drop compared to the 10w 40 hm and a higher hot idle psi which I did not expect with an oil that has a lower HTHSV



Comments?

The engine seems to run the same when warm/hot, perhaps a little quieter, and it is noticeably less crusty when first started in the morning.
 
You sure the oil pressure gauge is not giving you problems?

I used to have the same one you do, but switched to Sunpro and I seem to get better, more accurate readings on my truck with this new gauge....especially when I switched from Rotella to Valvoline this past summer.


GL
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top