Is there a problem here?

[robertjhoag]

Blackstone says they aren't ready to call this a problem, but some of the readings are of concern to me.

Truck is a 2009 Duramax with 27K miles. Under 5K on the oil, and the truck has been running hot (250*+ towing). I'm concerned there may be long term damage to the engine from operating in these conditions.

Aluminum 5
Chromium 1
Iron 37
Copper 230
Lead 4
Tin 0
Molybdenum 42
Nickel 1
Manganese 1
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 7
Boron 212
Silicon 29
Sodium 5
Calcium 1802
Magnesium 185
Phosphorus 981
Zinc 1204
Barium 0

Vis @210 67.6
Vis @100 12.31
Flashpoint 400
Fuel 1.0
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insolubles 2

Of particular concern are the Aluminum, Iron, and especially the copper in the oil. Aluminum and Iron I would expect to be piston and cylinder wear, but where is the copper coming from? Bearings?

 

[Astro14]

Copper is bearings, AFAIK, I can't think of anything else...and while we're talking Parts per million, that is way higher than typical...

The Al is no big deal at 5, and the Fe is bit high, but that Cu is way high...

I would get a second sample ASAP and see if the #s are repeated.

 

[Donald]

Could an oil filter being defective or staying in bypass and not filtering the oil cause the Cu to be that high?

Also give the air intake system a once over.

 

[SLCraig]

Are you using the wrong oil?

 

[Pablo]

I would say the Copper is coming from the oil cooler....if you have an oil cooler!

 

[tinmanSC]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
I would say the Copper is coming from the oil cooler....if you have an oil cooler!

+1

 

[tomcat27]

250 is pretty hot. what are you towing? how much weight?

 

[ramechanic4]

I think I'd fix the overheating problem and go on with life without too much concern, but probably sample again at oil change time just for good measure and piece of mind. We had a similar truck not long ago that was PACKED full between the radiator and intercooler. We almost missed it, at first glance it looked pretty clear, but it is very difficult to see between those two parts, there is a small hole right in the center of the core support you can look straight down through. Hope this helps.

 

[chubbs1]

What oil is that?
5k and that much Copper...I hope you have a cooler because if not your bearings are disintegrating.

Those are high temps you are running, is the cooling system OK? That just seems very hot.

 

[dnewton3]

What brand oil?
What grade?
How many OCIs have you already had?
How many different brands of oil have you tried so far?

Is that 250 deg F on the dash gage for towing temps? That's HOT! I have never got my Dmax that hot, no matter how hard I tried this summer, out west in the canyons and mountains of UT and CO pulling my large travel trailer. Those temps may be typical of what you see, but those temps are not "normal" for a Dmax. It's not uncommon to see a temp spike when pulling up a hard long hill, but are you indicating that you see a consistent 250 deg F? That's too hot; Dmax's generally run between 200 and 220 when towing, even under HEAVY conditions.

If I had to guess I'd say it's simply Cu from the oil cooler. And I'd also guess that you're running a very expensive synthetic, as some of them are known to cause Cu shedding from the cooler. With 27k miles on the truck, I presume you've had a few OCIs already. If you've been running dino and done several OCIs, that Cu should be down by now, to near universal averages. I flogged my Dmax this year on 10w-30 dino HDEO, and didn't get numbers nearly as high as yours, and my truck only has 33k miles on it. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2323660&page=1

The Fe is likely just from the combination of high heat and towing, but some portion (likely small) could be sympathetic to the elevated Cu, and while there are those that would disagree with me, Blackstone has commented on this on more than one occasion.

In the future please title your thread with the typical info: oil brand, grade, veh, miles, etc as it helps to understand your UOA, and it helps when using the "search" function.

 

[wlyszkow]

I used Amsoil engine flush FLSH in Subaru diesel with very high Cu and it is almost gone now. Interesting that quite high oil consumption also stopped after the engine flush.
You have Si quite high also - engine flush can only help with all of this. With Lead=4 part of Cu can be from bearings.
Insolubles are 2.0 ??? or 0.2 ?
Is it 5W-40 CJ-4 oil? Maybe for towing in so hot area you should check 15W-40 CJ-4 oil like Amsoil DME if you have DPF and if allowed by manual...

 

[robertjhoag]

Sorry, I'm a bit of a rookie here - I should have called out the fact that the oil used is Rotella T Dino 15-W40. 250* is from the dash gauge, verified by an edge insight, which sees between 250 - 255* in the hot weather towing a 5er on the freeway.

I'm glad to hear that the copper could be from a cooler. I tried to retrofit a cooler to help manage the overheating issues, but took it off. IMHO, the truck shouldn't need any aftermarket parts to tow within it's weight rating when everything is stock.

What concerns me the most is the fact that the oil level has consistently RISEN 1/2 to 1 qt. between changes. This would suggest to me that diesel is getting into the oil somehow, but Blackstone calls out the fuel as less than 1%.

Dealership maintains that there is no problem with the overheating unless it limps and sets a code, but I'm not sure I would agree. They can't find anything at fault with the cooling system on the truck.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: robertjhoag
Sorry, I'm a bit of a rookie here - I should have called out the fact that the oil used is Rotella T Dino 15-W40. 250* is from the dash gauge, verified by an edge insight, which sees between 250 - 255* in the hot weather towing a 5er on the freeway.

I'm glad to hear that the copper could be from a cooler. I tried to retrofit a cooler to help manage the overheating issues, but took it off. IMHO, the truck shouldn't need any aftermarket parts to tow within it's weight rating when everything is stock.

What concerns me the most is the fact that the oil level has consistently RISEN 1/2 to 1 qt. between changes. This would suggest to me that diesel is getting into the oil somehow, but Blackstone calls out the fuel as less than 1%.

IMHO you need a second opinion, and preferably a leak-down test on your injectors-before you add a long block to the list of things you need. How heavy is the fiver?

 

[robertjhoag]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: robertjhoag
Sorry, I'm a bit of a rookie here - I should have called out the fact that the oil used is Rotella T Dino 15-W40. 250* is from the dash gauge, verified by an edge insight, which sees between 250 - 255* in the hot weather towing a 5er on the freeway.

I'm glad to hear that the copper could be from a cooler. I tried to retrofit a cooler to help manage the overheating issues, but took it off. IMHO, the truck shouldn't need any aftermarket parts to tow within it's weight rating when everything is stock.

What concerns me the most is the fact that the oil level has consistently RISEN 1/2 to 1 qt. between changes. This would suggest to me that diesel is getting into the oil somehow, but Blackstone calls out the fuel as less than 1%.

IMHO you need a second opinion, and preferably a leak-down test on your injectors-before you add a long block to the list of things you need. How heavy is the fiver?


5er is 15k, I' rated to tow 16,100 with a GCWR of 24K. I've scaled it between 1-2k lbs under GCWR fully loaded.

 

[ramechanic4]

Originally Posted By: robertjhoag
Sorry, I'm a bit of a rookie here - I should have called out the fact that the oil used is Rotella T Dino 15-W40. 250* is from the dash gauge, verified by an edge insight, which sees between 250 - 255* in the hot weather towing a 5er on the freeway.

I'm glad to hear that the copper could be from a cooler. I tried to retrofit a cooler to help manage the overheating issues, but took it off. IMHO, the truck shouldn't need any aftermarket parts to tow within it's weight rating when everything is stock.

What concerns me the most is the fact that the oil level has consistently RISEN 1/2 to 1 qt. between changes. This would suggest to me that diesel is getting into the oil somehow, but Blackstone calls out the fuel as less than 1%.

Dealership maintains that there is no problem with the overheating unless it limps and sets a code, but I'm not sure I would agree. They can't find anything at fault with the cooling system on the truck.


I agree with bullwinkle that you need a second opinion, and if they don't find the problem than get a third, and a fourth if necessary, until you find a shop that's not lazy, and will find your overheating problem. The truck is not designed to run that hot, even while towing. I know that's not really the answer to the question you origanally asked, but it's surely the one I would address first.

 

[dnewton3]

I also concur that you need to get some more, and better, information. You can do a few things to help diganose the issues. On you next UOA, get two samples, and send them different places; that's a good start.

There is NO reason WHATSOEVER you should be gaining lube sump volume. You either have a fuel or coolant leak, (or a relative is sneaking into the garage bay at night to mess with your head). I presume that you are consistent in your method of checking oil. This gain in volume is a tell-tale sign that something is amiss. Do not discount the obvisous evidence when it stares you in the face, regardless of what a UOA report might say.

Further, I also agree that your truck should not be overheating. There are many of us that tow heavy loads, and we don't see that kind of temps. But I must be diligent and ask; are you using the Edge on some other setting than stock? I'm offering advice based upon "stock" engine tunes. If you're fueling up heavily, that would somewhat affect your heat load. Further, when you're towing, are you going fast? There will be a HUGE difference in heat load on the engine and tranny between 60 mph and 75 mph. What cooler did you add, then remove, to try and negate the temps? Was it an aftermarket radiator, intercooler, tranny, or engine oil cooler?

And while I'm at it, what is your tranny temp when your engine temp is so darn high?

How many OCIs have you done?
Have they all been dino Rotella 15w-40? If not, what else?
Are you using any oil additives?
Edge setting when towing?
Typical speed when towing?
Tranny temp when towing?

It is not normal to have such high Cu if you've been using dino oils and have had several OCIs. Further, it is not normal to have temps that high. Lastly, it is not normal to gain fluid volume in the sump.

 

[dnewton3]

A few more thoughts crossed my mind.

Forgive me for being a bit blunt, but I want to make sure we understand something. Are you possibly mistakenly looking at the tranny temp, and thinking its the engine temp? I'm going to assume not, because you state that the Edge has confirmed the temps. Just make sure you're looking at coolant and not tranny temps.

Also, presuming you're correct about the engine temps, your tranny temps should be almost as high, because while there is an accessory tranny cooler ahead of the intercooler, the fluid still uses a path in the radiator for it's primary heat exchange. If you engine is consistently running 250 deg F, then I would expect your tranny temp to be well over 200 deg F as well, if not close to 225.

It is POSSIBLE than that you have a bad ECT sending unit. That would account for both the Edge and dash gage both reading high temps. Both gages use the same source for temp info, AFAIK.

If your temps are truly that high (either the engine, or the tranny, or both) then your cooling fan should be ROARING all the time. When your truck is stone cold, and you start towing, at some point as the temps get higher, you should start to hear some really loud roaring from the fan. You cannot mistake this when it happens. So, does this happen? If the temps are as hot as you claim, that fan should be roaring non-stop. Does it do so? Generally, most Dmax trucks operate this way (this is a broad generalization as you might see info +/- these numbers a bit):
Tranny temps below 200 deg F will not bring the fan on, but much more than 200 def may start the fan action.
Engine temps below 210 deg F will not bring the fan on, but much more than 210 deg will bring the fan on.
The fan is not an "on/off" switch so much as it will ease on and off. It will ramp up to speed over several seconds, and coast down the same way. But when that fan is at full tilt, you'll KNOW it to be on because it is LOUD; it roars.

The fan is also very effective, at least in my truck. I've had mine come on going up hill, and be able to draw the temps down so much (while still going up hill) that the fan actually dropped out. My fan typically can cycle on/off while driving up long, hard grades and still maintain about 200-210 deg on both the eng and tranny temps.

However, like I said, if you're running a hot tune on the Edge, and you're driving fast on the highway, you're generating a LOT of HEAT.

Lastly, do you have an EGT pyrometer? I'm curious what your EGT is when the temps are so consistently hot.

 

[Duramax_LMM]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
......... are you using the Edge on some other setting than stock? ........


He stated it's an Edge Insight - simply a monitor.

I would expect with that load he needs to keep it in T/H and M so it goes no higher than 5th gear to keep the RPMs up. Be sure the fan is working. The truck is under warranty - have the dealer test that ECT sending unit.

As for the original question, my truck had 32 for copper at about the same mileage, his copper is way high.

Here's my OCA's:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2354288#Post2354288

 

[dnewton3]

I agree overall.

I didn't know about the Edge; I'm not into tuners. But I understand now that one is a monitor only. Thanks.

My truck as 33k miles on it. I've never even had 1/10th the Cu he's experiencing at roughly the same mileage.

One thing to note is that when you drop down a gear, your temps go up in EGT. There is a balance between engine and EGT temps. When you drop down a gear, you are getting better torque/rpm response for sure. But you're also getting more fuel burned per mile driven; more rpm = more fuel burned. More fuel burned = more heat. There is a "sweet spot" on my Dmax that seems to be between 1600rpm to 2100 rpm. I can balance out the power, engine temps, and EGT and run great.

I still think something (or more than one something) is contributing to the oddity of his condition.

I would not be happy with a lube sump that gaining volume.

I'm also curious what his temps are when he's running empty with no load to speak of. What does he see at those same highway speeds w/o the 5ver?