Anyone else run stickier tires on the front?

[MrWideTires]

I always say... what's the point of having fancy racing brakes and combining them with all-seasons or cheap tires. So I always try to run sticky (200-300 treadwear max performance) tires on the front to be able to brake hard in emergencies.

On the back I usually run whatever name brand performance tire is on sale and can do good on the rain. Yes if I turn really hard the car will oversteer but so far I've been able to control it everytime, and I like being able to launch without spinning through 2nd gear and actually use my brakes to their full pontential if needed.

 

[SLCraig]

I always run the same tires on all 4.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SLCraig
I always run the same tires on all 4.


Same here.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: MrWideTires
. So I always try to run sticky (200-300 treadwear max performance) tires on the front to be able to brake hard in emergencies.

How do you know that the tires with lower treadwear index = better braking traction?

 

[SrDriver]

I was always told that the best tires should be on the back? One don't want the vehicle swapping ends in an emergency stop.

 

[IndyIan]

I'll run much much stickier fronts for autocross, as its fun to drive a FWD car limited by the rear tires grip in a controlled environment.
On the street I think my autocross instincts would kick in for accident avoidence, ie, brake hard or turn hard, not both at once. But I couldn't let anyone else drive the car in that condition, like my wife or parents.
Most cars these days do have so much weight up there, front brake bias and abs, and suspension tuned to understeer that you probably can get away with moderately more grippy tires up front, and still have the car still tends towards understeer, but if a truck tire shows up in your lane in the wet, it could turn a severe swerve into a spin and get yourself and others killed.
Just get all 4 decent summer tires and enjoy the extra wear from rotating 4 tires, having stcky tires on the rear too only helps braking and cornering on the street.

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: SrDriver
I was always told that the best tires should be on the back? One don't want the vehicle swapping ends in an emergency stop.


If you're talking about everyday driving or taking the car around the track, I think on a FWD car you could make a case for sticker tires on the front. After all, those front tires have to put both motive and steering power to the pavement. It can be very easy to break the front tires loose on a FWD car, particularly if you find yourself applying power out of a turn. But if you do that, how do you rotate tires?

On a front engine/rear wheel drive car I don't know that having different traction rated tires between front and rear makes as much sense for everyday driving, given that the rear wheels are putting motive power to the pavement and the front wheels are putting steering power to the pavement. Front engine/RWD cars are more balanced so I supposed you'd actually have to do some real analysis to figure it out. My guess is you'd probably want roughly the same amount of traction all the way around unless you were doing something specialized like drag racing or any other straight line racing that depended on fast starts off the line, in which case you'd clearly want the highest traction tires on the rear. In any event, if you did put different traction rating tires on the front or back, you're still faced with the issue of how to rotate the tires if it's an everyday driver.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Indylan knows what many fwd drivers do not: FWD will spin in an instant if you brake too much while turning with any speed.

If you are ready for it, it's fun. If you're not it could be deadly.

Be careful.

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Indylan knows what many fwd drivers do not: FWD will spin in an instant if you brake too much while turning with any speed.

If you are ready for it, it's fun. If you're not it could be deadly.

Be careful.


Yep, should have mentioned that as well. In almost any front engine car most of the braking power is coming from the front wheels as well, so braking into a turn you have both braking power and steering power coupling to the pavement via the front tires. Very easy to break loose, and it'll surprise you how quickly traction will vanish. Many FWD cars will feel perfectly fine and controlled breaking into a turn, until they don't .... and you have lost all traction on the front wheels. Then Mr. Newton takes the driver's seat for a while.

 

[jaj]

The conventional wisdom for all tires including snow tires is that the best tires should be on the back, regardless of which wheels are driven.

That's because understeer is easier to control than oversteer, and so having the good tires at the rear improves your chances of accident avoidance.

If you want the best chances, then put equal tires on all four corners, and make sure they're good ones.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: engineerscott
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Indylan knows what many fwd drivers do not: FWD will spin in an instant if you brake too much while turning with any speed.

If you are ready for it, it's fun. If you're not it could be deadly.

Be careful.


Yep, should have mentioned that as well. In almost any front engine car most of the braking power is coming from the front wheels as well, so braking into a turn you have both braking power and steering power coupling to the pavement via the front tires. Very easy to break loose, and it'll surprise you how quickly traction will vanish. Many FWD cars will feel perfectly fine and controlled breaking into a turn, until they don't .... and you have lost all traction on the front wheels. Then Mr. Newton takes the driver's seat for a while.


Reread what Steve wrote. In a Buick what you describe is probably true, but in a FWD car tuned to have closer to neutral handling, just chopping the throttle in a turn combined with some steering input can put the back end way out, and hitting the brakes can have you backwards very quickly wondering what the heck happened. Just embarassing at a race, deadly on the street.
The OP's specV sentra is probably pretty neutral to start, and he said he can get the back end out pretty easily with the mismatched tires, so I think he's on borrowed time running a setup that prone to oversteer on the street. He just has to be caught off-guard once to have a big problem.

 

[rjundi]

If you live where winter occurs that potential danger happens quite often. You will find the front end stops first and the rear end swings all around on a slippery day and leads to a car in the ditch.

No thanks, best tires on rear and always four tires matched in make/model/size.

 

[PandaBear]

I run the better tire (more trend, newer, similar traction) up front if I have 2 set of 2. The reason is that I have no rain in the summer and more weight up front, and my car is FWD. Not the safest in the worst case scenario but better for my typical 99% driving condition.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: MrWideTires
I always say... what's the point of having fancy racing brakes and combining them with all-seasons or cheap tires. So I always try to run sticky (200-300 treadwear max performance) tires on the front to be able to brake hard in emergencies.


Great idea... except it's not.

UTQG treadware rating have nothing to do with how "sticky" a tire is. Simply because a tire is "sticky" or a better performing tire, doesn't mean it will have a lower treadwear rating.

Beyond that, comparing two different tires from two different manufacturers using the UTQG ratings is a complete cr4pshoot (seriously, this is a censored word?).

From Tirerack:
"The problem with UTQG Treadwear Grades is that they are open to some interpretation on the part of the tire manufacturer because they are assigned after the tire has only experienced a little treadwear as it runs the 7,200 miles. This means that the tire manufacturers need to extrapolate their raw wear data when they are assigning Treadwear Grades, and that their grades can to some extent reflect how conservative or optimistic their marketing department is. Typically, comparing the Treadwear Grades of tire lines within a single brand is somewhat helpful, while attempting to compare the grades between different brands is not as helpful."

That said, I'm pretty sure that every automobile and tire manufacturer will tell you that it's best to use four of the same tires, in the same size, and with about the same tread life remaining. Trying to re-engineering the car in an attempt make it an "auto-x monst4r, bro!" is a wasted effort and will generally lead to worse performance, especially when it's the nut behind the wheel that needs the most tweaking.

I never understood the premise of replacing only the front or rear tires because of wear. Why is one pair worn and the other not? Three instances: poor alignment, lack of rotation, or a driver constantly operating the vehicle beyond the limits of the tire.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer

That said, I'm pretty sure that every automobile and tire manufacturer will tell you that it's best to use four of the same tires, in the same size, and with about the same tread life remaining. Trying to re-engineering the car in an attempt make it an "auto-x monst4r, bro!" is a wasted effort and will generally lead to worse performance, especially when it's the nut behind the wheel that needs the most tweaking.

Well there are some odd setups, that work very well. This Neon has been near the top in terms of raw times in SCCA autocross in the Detroit area, and in theory this car could be driven as is on the street. Those are DOT approved tires on there.

I believe its just the stock engine with all the bolt ons too.

 

[Spazdog]

I tried a brand new pair of Kumhos on the front with a pair of the very age hardened OE Michelins on the back of my Integra. Middle of the first spirited corner I took and the car went sideways. Dorifto King Supahstah style.

It never showed a tendency to do that with worn practically bald age hardened Michelins up front. But with sticky and pliable tires up front, the back end of the car came around REAL fast.

If it did it that easy on dry pavement, I can't imagine it on wet.

 

[Geauxtiger]

My favorite local tire dealer has a magazine article framed and sitting right where you can't miss it at the front desk. The article explains how a woman went to a tire store and bought 2 new tires and had them installed on the front. Soon after, the lady was involved in tail-spin accident. She sued and was awarded millions. I talked to my dealer about the article and she explained that the article helps her explain why she absolutely will not install new tires in the front of a vehicle with used tires in the back.

 

[MrWideTires]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: MrWideTires
I always say... what's the point of having fancy racing brakes and combining them with all-seasons or cheap tires. So I always try to run sticky (200-300 treadwear max performance) tires on the front to be able to brake hard in emergencies.


Great idea... except it's not.

UTQG treadware rating have nothing to do with how "sticky" a tire is. Simply because a tire is "sticky" or a better performing tire, doesn't mean it will have a lower treadwear rating.

Beyond that, comparing two different tires from two different manufacturers using the UTQG ratings is a complete cr4pshoot (seriously, this is a censored word?).


I know that... I work with tires and do autocross, drag, road racing... I was just using UTQG as a reference since you won't find any tire with a rating above 400 that has the kind of grip I want.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer

That said, I'm pretty sure that every automobile and tire manufacturer will tell you that it's best to use four of the same tires, in the same size, and with about the same tread life remaining. Trying to re-engineering the car in an attempt make it an "auto-x monst4r, bro!" is a wasted effort and will generally lead to worse performance, especially when it's the nut behind the wheel that needs the most tweaking.

Well there are some odd setups, that work very well. This Neon has been near the top in terms of raw times in SCCA autocross in the Detroit area, and in theory this car could be driven as is on the street. Those are DOT approved tires on there.

I believe its just the stock engine with all the bolt ons too.


You missed my point. A competitive FSP car with an experienced driver coming up with a setup that mixes R-compound tires has nothing to do with using the UTQG treadwear rating to choose tires. Greg Anthony is a very good driver and has lots of seat time in his car. He didn't just look at the sidewall numbers to come up with his setup. The setup came from season after season of tweaking, not looking at UTQG data. Also, it's a setup that works for him and his car specifically, as many other FSP competitors aren't running similar setups.

I've been a Detroit SCCA member for a while. I am familiar with Greg Anthony's car. FSP has been a very competitive class with very good drivers. Throw a n00b into a well prepared FSP car and they wouldn't know what to do. I would predict slower times than most of the G Stock cars.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer

I never understood the premise of replacing only the front or rear tires because of wear. Why is one pair worn and the other not? Three instances: poor alignment, lack of rotation, or a driver constantly operating the vehicle beyond the limits of the tire.


1 more: road hazard that damage only 1 out of 4 tires. What you stated was all included in 1 instance which is the lack of frequent enough rotation.