comment about hydraulic flat-tappet lifter ticking

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I'm skeptical of the prevailing opinion I've seen here and elsewhere (especially Volvo forums) that oil viscosity (heavier = better or really argument at all) is critical for the proper functioning of the lifters. If I infer the logic correctly, the assumption is that thicker oil during both cold startup and running at normal temp is accounting for the fact that tolerances in the lifter body are larger due to wear over time and therefore the heavier oil will allow the lifters to keep their hydraulic pressure high enough to prevent disfunction (ticking). [Note that in the article below they say that heavy oil would be worse for lifter function, so I'm not entirely sure why heavy oil seems to help in Volvos.] I'm wondering if it's just a poor bandaid for a different problem. That problem being this: perhaps there is varnish/sludge/buildup on the lifter internals (check ball, plunger, spring - see the EHow link below for an explanation). Heavy oil will work as I mentioned previously (allow the corroded lifter internals to keep pressure longer because the slower flow rates mean that the lifter internals will empty more slowly thus keeping the internal hydraulic pressure high enough to function) but not fix the problem (varnish buildup preventing proper operation of the check ball, spring, or whatever). If this is correct, then the best course of action would be to use some sort of varnish solvent (AutoRx, Seafoam, high-detergent oil, or a combination of the above) to remove that buildup and allow the lifters (I'm guessing it would be primarily the check ball sealing action) to function properly. Thus lifter ticking has very little to do with oil weight, but oil weight can be used to partially mask the issue. If I'm right, perhaps we should be pointing people with lifter ticking to a high detergent oil or AutoRx or some other engine cleaning product that dissolves varnish?


"If this happens every time you start the engine, then it can mean that the oil in the engine is too heavy for the current temperatures, or that there is too much varnish in the lifter. Another indication that the hydraulic valve lifters aren't working is intermittent knocking, which can be caused by leakage at the check ball seat, which can be due to varnish or just particles getting in there that don't belong there. "

Read more: How Do Hydraulic Valve Lifters Work? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5006538_hy ... z19XHcYbrD
http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5006538_hy ... -work.html
 
My usual remedy for a "sticky" lifter is a quart of MMO added to the crankcase. The results are usually evident after a decent highway run. No muss, no fuss.

Throwing "heavier" oil at the problem definitely strikes me as the wrong way to deal with the issue.

Best,
 
Heavier oil wont help a sticking lifter/lash adjuster if it is stuck due to varnish.
Some older lifter designs or worn adjusters with high leak down rates may get a little quieter but i think you have a good point when you say this is a band aid for the real underlying cause.

I don't know what would be different about the Volvo,the lifter is filled with oil so internal bore wear should be minimal but who knows the design maybe prone to excessive leak down.

MMO,BG engine cleaner,Kreen Pro-Tec,Liqui Moly's lifter cleaner and a few others all work well on varnish stuck lifter/lash adjusters.Products that remain in the oil over a longer period like MMO and Kreen have the best chance at successfully cleaning severely varnished up parts.

ARX and Kerosene based 10 min engine flushes have very little if any effect on varnish.
 
Leak-down, that's the term I was looking for.

The consensus on the Volvo sites seems to be that thick=better for worn lifters. One of the things I'm confused about is that the viscosity hypothesis has two competing factors: heavier supposedly means better lifter internal hydraulic pressure (via slower leak-down), but it also means less flow at the top end because pump has to work harder (and therefore supply to lifters). Cold start ticking is presumably a result of less pumpable cold oil, same idea for bad oil pan o-rings (less flow to top end), but then again the cold oil is thicker so lifter hydraulic pressure should be higher (i.e. as if a heavier weight oil was being used). So why then does the heavier weight oil seem to help ticking lifters? Is cold start ticking REALLY bad with heavier oil? Seems like it would be so.

These engines are DOHC so these are followers I guess.
 
Interestingly, my cavalier didn't have flat tappet, but it was hydraulic lifters, OHV. It didn't tick on thin oil, at all. Either the Havoline or Edge 5W-20, or the PP 5W-30, which is a thin 30w. It did, however tick like crazy on Maxlife 5W-30, and the PYB 10W-40 that it came with. Thin weights were quieter, and thicker was louder. So I wouldn't just say that thick oil will always be quieter than thin oil, because that isn't the case.
 
My 71 Cutlass had a noisy tappet when I bought it. 27 years and 70K later, it's still noisy today... even after an engine rebuild with new cam and tappets!
 
So what would the consensus be then? Is this most likely a varnish buildup issue and therefore a high-detergent oil run over multiple OCIs or engine cleaner of some kind would be the best plan of attack? Can dissolving varnish and cleaning up the lifters make this issue worse?
 
Cleaning them up isn't going to damage anything or make anything worse.
A qt of MMO for a full OCI should work fine.If the noise remains then chances are something in a bottle wont cure the issue.
JM2C
 
It depends on when the lifter is making noise.
Only at start up? Probably too thick oil or insuficient flow for various reasons. Maybe worn parts that need to get hot and expand.
Also, a worn pushrod end or rocker arm will make a click noise, and is often overlooked.
 
Cold start lifter noise seems to be common in these cars, mine does it now. I'm really hoping this goes away with no additional effort from me (I've already tried Seafoam which temporarily fixed it, then after I changed the oil it got worse, now it's getting better again). I.e. I think the Rotella T6 miracle oil will eventually dissolve the varnish deposits that are causing the ticking.

Will a worn pushrod make noise that varies depending on oil weight or temperature?
 
I ended up disassembling/cleaning my lifters on my 97 Saturn SC1 because of lifter noise. The car was re-ringed 6 months ago and prior to that I have been pumping all sorts of solvents in my oil for years to avoid the re-ring. MMO, ATF, chemtool and constant fresh oil(burned a quart every 200 miles) did not sufficiently clean the lifters. There was dark jelly-like oil in the bottoms of the lifters that nevers gets flushed out and hardedned varnish in the lifters. The lifter noise is at least 75% less. I'm glad I tried cleaning them before I replaced them.
 
As a follow-up the ticking is worse than ever on my Volvo now that I'm at 220k. Previous OCI ended with 500 miles with 1/2 qt of MMO in the sump. I think the engine is nice and clean internally given my efforts with RT6, Seafoam, MMO, couple extra filter changes and high-mileage oils. The ticking is louder than I remember it being 10k miles ago when I got it, but does really seem to be temperature related and makes the most noise right after startup after sitting overnight or for >1 day. It's got PHM 10-40 in it now. I suspect that it's due largely to inefficient oil pickup in the pan because of worn out o-rings. I've pretty much decided to keep an 'ear' on it and just hope nothing is approaching imminent failure (i.e. ignore it).
whistle.gif


So in summary I think my theories about cleaning out the lifters to restore proper function were much ado about nothing, it's probably more of an oil supply issue.
 
The oil pan o-ring theory is just that... a guess. Pull the pan and prove/disprove it. Otherwise it's simply speculation, and it's serious enough to warrant your time! If you're really aerating the oil then you're likely going to have serious issues soon enough.

Kreen is like NOTHING else you've used. Hydraulic lifters make noises in some cars due to deposits. Kreen has killed the startup noises in a van I own with 400k miles, nothing else worked.

So don't knock it till you try it!
 
An oil filter with a poorly designed or leaking anti-backflow valve will also cause lifter noise at start up. With a poorly designed or leaking anti-backflow valve the oil galleys and valve train can loose their oil with the engine off as it drains to the pan backwards through the oil filter, then on start up, the pump has to refill all those cavities, and until it does, you will get lifter noise.
 
Back years ago (decades actually) when I was of the "more is better" mindset, I was running 20W50 in an engine that spec'ed 10w30. I had lifter tick that was quite noticeable on startup and whenever I let the engine idle for a while. Then I had the bright idea of running the weight oil that was spec'ed in the owner's manual. Completely cleared up the ticking with the exception of a little startup ticking on the very coldest mornings. I kicked myself afterward for not following the manufacturer's recommendation. I don't know what weight oil is spec'ed for your Volvo but I'd look into that and give it a try. You've dumped every magic elixir known to man in the crankcase and that hasn't fixed it, what could it hurt.
 
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