I have just rebuilt a 1982 Toyota 2F engine with a bored out block and reground cam and lifters. I'm told with the pushrods and lifters that some of the newer oils may be bad for it. Currently I'm breaking it in with Joe Gibbs break in oil (15w-50). I can special order the regular Joe Gibbs oil, but it might be nice to use something more easily found and cheaper since there is an 8.2 qt oil change capacity.
Oil for a newly rebuild 1982 Toyota Land Cruiser
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Rotella T5 10w30 HDEO should do well for you in this application. Lots of ZDDP for the cam and lifters.
Hi.
There is no need for break in oil; however, you won't harm your engine so feel free to use it.
The best thing you can do is to use an oil of the recommended viscosity, and drive it very very hard for 20-30 minutes while varying the engine rpm. Then change the oil and filter immediately. You'll get rid of the excess metal shavings and seat the rings properly, reducing excessive oil consumption in the future.
Of course, this could go against any warranty you may have, so be careful about it. I do this on all my vehicles when I buy them. It's mainly a habit from work (I help design engines as an automotive/motorsports engineer) and works well for me. Feel free to do as you please.
There is no need for break in oil; however, you won't harm your engine so feel free to use it.
The best thing you can do is to use an oil of the recommended viscosity, and drive it very very hard for 20-30 minutes while varying the engine rpm. Then change the oil and filter immediately. You'll get rid of the excess metal shavings and seat the rings properly, reducing excessive oil consumption in the future.
Of course, this could go against any warranty you may have, so be careful about it. I do this on all my vehicles when I buy them. It's mainly a habit from work (I help design engines as an automotive/motorsports engineer) and works well for me. Feel free to do as you please.
Originally Posted By: dtt004
Hi.
There is no need for break in oil; however, you won't harm your engine so feel free to use it.
The best thing you can do is to use an oil of the recommended viscosity, and drive it very very hard for 20-30 minutes while varying the engine rpm. Then change the oil and filter immediately. You'll get rid of the excess metal shavings and seat the rings properly, reducing excessive oil consumption in the future.
I disagree with you on this. His engine has flat tappits that slide on his cam. He needs an addative for camshaft break in or a special break in oil. Not so concerned with the rings at this point. They will seat them selves in a few hundred miles but his cam and lifters cal be ruined in 20 minutes w/o ZDDP.
Hi.
There is no need for break in oil; however, you won't harm your engine so feel free to use it.
The best thing you can do is to use an oil of the recommended viscosity, and drive it very very hard for 20-30 minutes while varying the engine rpm. Then change the oil and filter immediately. You'll get rid of the excess metal shavings and seat the rings properly, reducing excessive oil consumption in the future.
I disagree with you on this. His engine has flat tappits that slide on his cam. He needs an addative for camshaft break in or a special break in oil. Not so concerned with the rings at this point. They will seat them selves in a few hundred miles but his cam and lifters cal be ruined in 20 minutes w/o ZDDP.
I went with the Joe Gibbs because that's what the machine shop recommended. Since they did all the work, he wont warranty it without a high zinc oil for break in. The trouble is, that you can't just go in and buy the oil if you need it. You have to have them order it and it can take awhile.
I thought about using Rotella, but the machine shop says that the rings may not seat as well as there is too much detergent and that the new SN oils would be very bad for my motor. If I do start with Rotella, which is now SM, is the new formulation going to harm the motor.
Thanks!
I thought about using Rotella, but the machine shop says that the rings may not seat as well as there is too much detergent and that the new SN oils would be very bad for my motor. If I do start with Rotella, which is now SM, is the new formulation going to harm the motor.
Thanks!
Originally Posted By: carguy
I went with the Joe Gibbs because that's what the machine shop recommended. Since they did all the work, he wont warranty it without a high zinc oil for break in. The trouble is, that you can't just go in and buy the oil if you need it. You have to have them order it and it can take awhile.
I thought about using Rotella, but the machine shop says that the rings may not seat as well as there is too much detergent and that the new SN oils would be very bad for my motor. If I do start with Rotella, which is now SM, is the new formulation going to harm the motor.
Thanks!
Would not a brand new engine have to seat its rings too from straight from toyota??
I went with the Joe Gibbs because that's what the machine shop recommended. Since they did all the work, he wont warranty it without a high zinc oil for break in. The trouble is, that you can't just go in and buy the oil if you need it. You have to have them order it and it can take awhile.
I thought about using Rotella, but the machine shop says that the rings may not seat as well as there is too much detergent and that the new SN oils would be very bad for my motor. If I do start with Rotella, which is now SM, is the new formulation going to harm the motor.
Thanks!
Would not a brand new engine have to seat its rings too from straight from toyota??
I'm wondering if anyone who has put Rotella T in a gasoline engine is experiencing any higher oil consumption than with regular gasoline engine oils?
Originally Posted By: carguy
I went with the Joe Gibbs because that's what the machine shop recommended. Since they did all the work, he wont warranty it without a high zinc oil for break in. The trouble is, that you can't just go in and buy the oil if you need it. You have to have them order it and it can take awhile.
I thought about using Rotella, but the machine shop says that the rings may not seat as well as there is too much detergent and that the new SN oils would be very bad for my motor. If I do start with Rotella, which is now SM, is the new formulation going to harm the motor.
Thanks!
Why would SN be bad? SN is nothing but improved SM, with more wear protection, less sludge, etc.
For your location use Rotella T6 5W-40 throughout the year for excellent results. You can use a quality CJ-4/SM 15W-40 like Mobil Delvac Super 1300 15W-40 for excellent results in temperatures above freezing.
I went with the Joe Gibbs because that's what the machine shop recommended. Since they did all the work, he wont warranty it without a high zinc oil for break in. The trouble is, that you can't just go in and buy the oil if you need it. You have to have them order it and it can take awhile.
I thought about using Rotella, but the machine shop says that the rings may not seat as well as there is too much detergent and that the new SN oils would be very bad for my motor. If I do start with Rotella, which is now SM, is the new formulation going to harm the motor.
Thanks!
Why would SN be bad? SN is nothing but improved SM, with more wear protection, less sludge, etc.
For your location use Rotella T6 5W-40 throughout the year for excellent results. You can use a quality CJ-4/SM 15W-40 like Mobil Delvac Super 1300 15W-40 for excellent results in temperatures above freezing.
Also, Toyota F engine is a high-torque-at-low-RPM engine and use of an oil with HTHS viscosity less than 3.5 will likely result in bearing failure.
All CJ-4/SM HDEOs (including 10W-30) have HTHS greater than 3.5 and should be OK with this engine. Alternatively you can use a thick PCMO such as 10W-40. 10W-30 or thinner PCMOs have HTHS ~ 3.1 or less and shouldn't be used with this engine.
Coming back to SN vs. SM, they have the same ZDDP levels (phosphorus 600 ppm min, 800 ppm max) and the machine-shop guy doesn't seem to know what he is talking about. CJ-4 next to SM overrides SM and it has a maximum phosphorus level of 1200 ppm. In addition, SN grades that are not resource conserving -- 10W-40 and higher viscosities -- have no limit on phosporus (ZDDP).
All CJ-4/SM HDEOs (including 10W-30) have HTHS greater than 3.5 and should be OK with this engine. Alternatively you can use a thick PCMO such as 10W-40. 10W-30 or thinner PCMOs have HTHS ~ 3.1 or less and shouldn't be used with this engine.
Coming back to SN vs. SM, they have the same ZDDP levels (phosphorus 600 ppm min, 800 ppm max) and the machine-shop guy doesn't seem to know what he is talking about. CJ-4 next to SM overrides SM and it has a maximum phosphorus level of 1200 ppm. In addition, SN grades that are not resource conserving -- 10W-40 and higher viscosities -- have no limit on phosporus (ZDDP).
Thanks for the info. What is HTHS?
Originally Posted By: carguy
Thanks for the info. What is HTHS?
High-temperature, high-shear viscosity -- meaning viscosity measured at high temperature (150 C) for a rapidly rotating object (engine part rotating at high RPM).
Motor-oil viscosity for fast-rotating engine parts depends on rotation speed at high RPMs because the viscosity-index improvers present in the oil temporarily uncoil their molecules at high-shear (high-RPM) conditions to increase the viscosity.
Fuel economy decreases with HTHS viscosity (engine friction increases). Minimum oil-film thickness (MOFT) increases with HTHS viscosity. At low RPM and high torque, oil film could break, and for a given engine, sufficient HTHS viscosity must be chosen to protect the bearings and other engine parts. Diesel engines require higher HTHS viscosity than gasoline engines because they produce a lot of torque at low RPMs. Toyota F gasoline engines also produce a lot of torque at low RPMs, requiring more HTHS viscosity than a typical gasoline engine.
Thanks for the info. What is HTHS?
High-temperature, high-shear viscosity -- meaning viscosity measured at high temperature (150 C) for a rapidly rotating object (engine part rotating at high RPM).
Motor-oil viscosity for fast-rotating engine parts depends on rotation speed at high RPMs because the viscosity-index improvers present in the oil temporarily uncoil their molecules at high-shear (high-RPM) conditions to increase the viscosity.
Fuel economy decreases with HTHS viscosity (engine friction increases). Minimum oil-film thickness (MOFT) increases with HTHS viscosity. At low RPM and high torque, oil film could break, and for a given engine, sufficient HTHS viscosity must be chosen to protect the bearings and other engine parts. Diesel engines require higher HTHS viscosity than gasoline engines because they produce a lot of torque at low RPMs. Toyota F gasoline engines also produce a lot of torque at low RPMs, requiring more HTHS viscosity than a typical gasoline engine.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Motor-oil viscosity for fast-rotating engine parts depends on rotation speed at high RPMs because the viscosity-index improvers present in the oil temporarily uncoil their molecules at high-shear (high-RPM) conditions to increase the viscosity.
Here is a better explanation on shear:
Motor-oil viscosity for fast-rotating engine parts depends on rotation speed at high RPMs because the viscosity-index improvers present in the oil might temporarily fail to align their molecules at high-shear (high-RPM) conditions to increase the viscosity. This is known as temporary shear, meaning the oil showing smaller viscosity at high RPMs than it would for an oil that doesn't contain viscosity-index improvers. (Viscosity-index improvers might also permanently shear, leading to a permanent loss in viscosity.)
Motor-oil viscosity for fast-rotating engine parts depends on rotation speed at high RPMs because the viscosity-index improvers present in the oil temporarily uncoil their molecules at high-shear (high-RPM) conditions to increase the viscosity.
Here is a better explanation on shear:
Motor-oil viscosity for fast-rotating engine parts depends on rotation speed at high RPMs because the viscosity-index improvers present in the oil might temporarily fail to align their molecules at high-shear (high-RPM) conditions to increase the viscosity. This is known as temporary shear, meaning the oil showing smaller viscosity at high RPMs than it would for an oil that doesn't contain viscosity-index improvers. (Viscosity-index improvers might also permanently shear, leading to a permanent loss in viscosity.)
Ring seating has more to do with the bore finish relative to the ring design and materials than anything to do with the oil. If that relationship is correct, the rings will (and should) have seated in short order.
For break in on a flat tappet engine, the zinc is more important, so yeah, run the high zinc oil. Not sure I would have recommended a 15W50 viscosity but in a warm climate, it's not a serious problem.
For continued use, I'd recommend a dual rated (CJ4/SM) HDEO 10W30. It has SL levels of the zinc, levels at which the engine was designed to use, and it's on the thick side. In California, you may have easy access to the Delo 10W30 but the rotella Triple Protection or syn blend T5 seem to be readily available everywhere (WalMart, etc). Motorcraft also makes a 10W30 HDEO ("Super Duty") with specs similar to the T5 and about the same price. I've never seen it in parts stores or WalMarts/Target/KMart, etc., but Ford dealers have it.
A low stress, low output engine like a 2F can likely do well on SN or SM oils but in your initial post, carguy, you said "reground cam and lifters." In my experience, reground parts sometimes do not come out hardened as well as factory parts. Depends on who does them, but for that reason, if it were me, I'd stay with SL levels of zinc and those are most easily obtained with a CJ4/SM dual rated HDEO.
For break in on a flat tappet engine, the zinc is more important, so yeah, run the high zinc oil. Not sure I would have recommended a 15W50 viscosity but in a warm climate, it's not a serious problem.
For continued use, I'd recommend a dual rated (CJ4/SM) HDEO 10W30. It has SL levels of the zinc, levels at which the engine was designed to use, and it's on the thick side. In California, you may have easy access to the Delo 10W30 but the rotella Triple Protection or syn blend T5 seem to be readily available everywhere (WalMart, etc). Motorcraft also makes a 10W30 HDEO ("Super Duty") with specs similar to the T5 and about the same price. I've never seen it in parts stores or WalMarts/Target/KMart, etc., but Ford dealers have it.
A low stress, low output engine like a 2F can likely do well on SN or SM oils but in your initial post, carguy, you said "reground cam and lifters." In my experience, reground parts sometimes do not come out hardened as well as factory parts. Depends on who does them, but for that reason, if it were me, I'd stay with SL levels of zinc and those are most easily obtained with a CJ4/SM dual rated HDEO.
Thanks. I have about 300 miles on the engine. I went with the heavier weight oil from recommendations I've read in the past in Toyota Trails Magazine.
Walmart discontinued the 10W30 Rotella non synthetic here. Is there a link to look at the Rotella specs for the different weights and conventional, semi-syn, and synthetic?
Walmart discontinued the 10W30 Rotella non synthetic here. Is there a link to look at the Rotella specs for the different weights and conventional, semi-syn, and synthetic?
Originally Posted By: carguy
Thanks. I have about 300 miles on the engine. I went with the heavier weight oil from recommendations I've read in the past in Toyota Trails Magazine.
Walmart discontinued the 10W30 Rotella non synthetic here. Is there a link to look at the Rotella specs for the different weights and conventional, semi-syn, and synthetic?
There is very little difference between Rotella T5 10W-30 and Rotella T6 5W-40. The former is slightly thinner when hot and the latter is slightly thinner when cold. You would notice little difference -- primarily a very small drop in MPG with 5W-40. 5W-40 might provide a little more wear protection and it's also fully synthetic, which might give you additional benefits, such as longer OCIs and less sludge.
You can also use a quality conventional 15W-40 such as Mobil Delvac 1300 Super in temperatures above freezing with excellent results, but it's slightly thicker than 5W-40 and your MPG will drop a little more.
You can find all Shell/Pennzoil/Quaker State datasheets here. Search for T5 or T6.
Thanks. I have about 300 miles on the engine. I went with the heavier weight oil from recommendations I've read in the past in Toyota Trails Magazine.
Walmart discontinued the 10W30 Rotella non synthetic here. Is there a link to look at the Rotella specs for the different weights and conventional, semi-syn, and synthetic?
There is very little difference between Rotella T5 10W-30 and Rotella T6 5W-40. The former is slightly thinner when hot and the latter is slightly thinner when cold. You would notice little difference -- primarily a very small drop in MPG with 5W-40. 5W-40 might provide a little more wear protection and it's also fully synthetic, which might give you additional benefits, such as longer OCIs and less sludge.
You can also use a quality conventional 15W-40 such as Mobil Delvac 1300 Super in temperatures above freezing with excellent results, but it's slightly thicker than 5W-40 and your MPG will drop a little more.
You can find all Shell/Pennzoil/Quaker State datasheets here. Search for T5 or T6.
Originally Posted By: carguy
I'm wondering if anyone who has put Rotella T in a gasoline engine is experiencing any higher oil consumption than with regular gasoline engine oils?
I noticed the opposite effect. Our family owns a 2001 Isuzu Trooper and a 1994 Honda Passport. They both use a little oil over the OCI, not bad, but enough to notice. The Trooper due to design, and the Passport maybe to dirty rings, or possibly age. I started using Rotella T in them for the wear protection and detergents to keep them clean, I wasn't thinking of the oil consumption, but after running the Rotella, both SUVs are using less oil than before. I check the dipsticks often enough to notice the difference.
Are you experiencing higher oil consumption with Rotella? It's possible that Rotella might be doing some cleaning, and the crud/oil might be getting trapped in the filter.
I'm wondering if anyone who has put Rotella T in a gasoline engine is experiencing any higher oil consumption than with regular gasoline engine oils?
I noticed the opposite effect. Our family owns a 2001 Isuzu Trooper and a 1994 Honda Passport. They both use a little oil over the OCI, not bad, but enough to notice. The Trooper due to design, and the Passport maybe to dirty rings, or possibly age. I started using Rotella T in them for the wear protection and detergents to keep them clean, I wasn't thinking of the oil consumption, but after running the Rotella, both SUVs are using less oil than before. I check the dipsticks often enough to notice the difference.
Are you experiencing higher oil consumption with Rotella? It's possible that Rotella might be doing some cleaning, and the crud/oil might be getting trapped in the filter.
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I'm actually running the 10w30 Conventional Rotella in a 1995 Isuzu Trooper and it seems to be doing really well with it. This engine has about 10k on it and uses a minimal amount of oil between changes. I do notice the startup oil pressure takes longer than with Mobil 1 I used to run in the previous motor.
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