Can-Am Roadster

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: Scoot_4_20

Would you say Harley has perfected the V Twin? If not, what brands have perfected the V Twin?

How many other types of motors besides V Twins has Harley ever produced?


Actually the German designed V-Rod engine is a beautiful piece of work for a V twin. From accounts I've read, it's a great power plant searching for a equally competent chassis to put it in. HD could have a winner on their hands if they put the R&D into developing something like Buell for that engine.

As far as other V twins, there are several companies that make excellent engines. Rotax (Bombardier), KTM, Cagiva and Ducati are a few. Not to mention all of the great Japanese brands that have managed to massage the old V twin design into powerful, smooth, reliable power plants.

 

[kballowe]

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And now (drum roll, please) as promised .... a photo of my VStar 650.

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[FLHRGator]

I noticed that the number of Harley vs. Metric [censored] matches in this forum went way down when ZGRider and Boraticus stopped frequenting it.

 

[Scoot_4_20]

Quote:
Let's see.

hal2626 posted "Nothing says I am a financially embarassed real motorcyclist like riding a small,cheap Japanese cruiser......LOL" and I pretty much agreed with that... having working in bike shops on and off, for most of my life.


Yes, but these were assumptions and opinions you two people made. Assumptions do not equate to actuality, whether you worked in bike shops all your life or not. It's just an assumption to say that applies to every rider, or any rider in particular, because you don't know the real reasons why these people own any certain bike.

 

[kballowe]

Originally Posted By: WANG
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
I think a bigger problem during winter would be trying to keep yourself warm... can a heated vest and hand grips really accomplish this when it's below 30F outside and you're doing 60 mph?


They look like they would have superb weather protection, so I'd imagine that it would be absolutely doable to ride one of these in 20-30 degree temps with no more than heated grips as long as the ride duration was an hour or less. With heated gear you would probably be money for as long as you wanted to ride.
Shoot, sled riders ride in the winter exclusively!


It's amazing what a set of heated gear will do. My set is like a windbreaker slacks and jacket so not too bulky. Riding in the 30's is not a problem. Personally I don't like to ride when it's below freezing because I've had a couple of close calls with little spots of frozen moisture on the roadway on an otherwise dry surface.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: kballowe
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And now (drum roll, please) as promised .... a photo of my VStar 650.

That's one sweet looking bike!

 

[kballowe]

Originally Posted By: Scoot_4_20
Quote:
Let's see.

hal2626 posted "Nothing says I am a financially embarassed real motorcyclist like riding a small,cheap Japanese cruiser......LOL" and I pretty much agreed with that... having working in bike shops on and off, for most of my life.


Yes, but these were assumptions and opinions you two people made. Assumptions do not equate to actuality, whether you worked in bike shops all your life or not. It's just an assumption to say that applies to every rider, or any rider in particular, because you don't know the real reasons why these people own any certain bike.









Oh no - there are no absolutes. Some folks buy a small cruiser because that's what they want. Some buy one because that's all they can afford. Some buy the biggest thing they can get, and go waaaay over their head into debt.

I've sold bikes and wrenched on plenty. A lot of customers come in for a bike and get what's in their price range and that's typically a smaller Japanese cruiser. Harley doesn't make the really small bikes. European small bikes are priced higher than the Japanese models. So, the choice they are left with is the small Japanese cruiser, for that price range.

It doesn't need to be a Harley rider to think that the small bike rider cannot afford a larger bike. It's human nature. Same way that guy in the 4x4 truck looks at the Prius owner and immediately thinks "tree-hugger". And the Prius owner thinks that guy with the 4x4 is an idiot.

 

[Spazdog]

Quote:
Would you say Harley has perfected the V Twin? If not, what brands have perfected the V Twin?


How many other types of motors besides V Twins has Harley ever produced?

Perfected?

I don't know.

Once Yamaha got the downdrafts sorted out, the XV550 Vision was an exceptionally good V-twin. It preceeded the Honda Hawk GT and Suzuki SV. It was liquid cooled DOHC 8 valve V-twin when Harley didn't even have the Evolution out yet.
Harley Davidson allegedly designed the Virago V-twin...I don't see it. Looks like two Yamaha Exciter single cylinder engines arranged in a V to me.
If you've ever ridden an early Virago back to back with an AMF Harley, you'd pick the Yamaha.
The early Shadow 3 valve/2 plug V-twins were far better than the Harley Evos from that time. Honda dumbed them down for the "potato potato potato" exhaust sound.
Ducati has had a pretty good run with V-twins. Desmodromic valve actuation maintenance issues and sometimes glitchy fuel management issues aside...
Moto Guzzi's original V-twin was designed off a tractor engine. How's that for torque?
Moto Morini used a V-twin
Then there was the "flat" twin of Zundapp which is actually a 170 degree V twin

There are reasons that none of these are "perfect". But in their own ways they are better than anything badged Harley Davidson

Harley Davidson also produced a single cylinder. A knockoff of a German DKW. It was called the Hummer. You probably know it better by it's more sucessful spoil of war twin, the BSA Bantam.

 

[Scoot_4_20]

Originally Posted By: kballowe


Oh no - there are no absolutes. Some folks buy a small cruiser because that's what they want. Some buy one because that's all they can afford. Some buy the biggest thing they can get, and go waaaay over their head into debt.

I've sold bikes and wrenched on plenty. A lot of customers come in for a bike and get what's in their price range and that's typically a smaller Japanese cruiser. Harley doesn't make the really small bikes. European small bikes are priced higher than the Japanese models. So, the choice they are left with is the small Japanese cruiser, for that price range.

It doesn't need to be a Harley rider to think that the small bike rider cannot afford a larger bike. It's human nature. Same way that guy in the 4x4 truck looks at the Prius owner and immediately thinks "tree-hugger". And the Prius owner thinks that guy with the 4x4 is an idiot.



I chose to downsize to a scooter for many reasons. It's a lot more practical for me at this time. I have other priorities right now and just wanted something super good on gas to putt around town on. I also don't really have time to ride any more like I used to, and I no longer want to go out to burn gas just for something to do, so the bigger bike was more or less taking up space.

The Scooter pollutes a lot less, and I no longer smell exhaust at red lights, which I appreciate about the scoot.

I truly don't worry about what I may look like to others. The Honda Elite is quite a reliable little machine and is always ready when I am. I like it.

I rode a 650 V Star a while back and loved it, but owning one at this time would not be a good choice for me to make. Maybe next year or the year after, or maybe never, I'm not sure. I'll have to see what my priorities are at that time and hopefully make a wise decision that's not based on greed, selfishness, jealousy, my appearance to others, or to try to add to my masculinity.

 

[BigCahuna]

I still believe there is a right time and place in everyone's life for a "small, cheap Japanese cruiser." My first bike was an even smaller and even cheaper Japanese cruiser (Suzuki GZ250). Could I have afforded a big, expensive, non-Japanese cruiser at that time? Sure, but I just finished taking my MSF course and I did sit on many larger bikes, and no way in [censored] did I feel confident or comfortable handling them. Plus, being a new rider, there was a pretty high risk that I was going to drop it. Dropping a $2K bike is easier to swallow than dropping a $20K one. That's why I bought what I did. Will I ever upgrade to something significantly larger than my current Vulcan? Probably not... I'm only 5'7" and weigh under 150 lbs. Big bikes aren't for everyone, pricing aside.

I agree with the above statement.And as far as what you spend on a bike, its you wallet and your money.But if you should happen to buy a bike that was made for less then 10 years, and is now out of production, and go on spouting how it was so much better then a Harley, you better have the thick skin to hear the truth. Harley's were never made to be the fastest bikes on the road. But that's what the metric makers think people want.And it looks like people tire of the hi pitched whine and no feeling of support as they cancel models in search of the next big Harley look a like.Harley may have dropped a few bikes in their line thru the years, but the metric makers dropped more then you can remember. The Honda Goldwing is the only long term metric which has stood the test of time.Its not for everyone as its bigger and heavier then the big Harley's.Its hard to get attached to a bike that was made for 6 years then dropped of the face of the planet.Buy what you like, and can afford.,,

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
But if you should happen to buy a bike that was made for less then 10 years, and is now out of production, and go on spouting how it was so much better then a Harley, you better have the thick skin to hear the truth.

Let me get this straight: producing the same old stuff for decades on end is supposed to be a sign of superiority? I'd call it lack of innovation and progress.

If Ford was still producing the same Escort they made in early 80s, would they still be in business today?

 

[kballowe]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
But if you should happen to buy a bike that was made for less then 10 years, and is now out of production, and go on spouting how it was so much better then a Harley, you better have the thick skin to hear the truth.

Let me get this straight: producing the same old stuff for decades on end is supposed to be a sign of superiority? I'd call it lack of innovation and progress.

If Ford was still producing the same Escort they made in early 80s, would they still be in business today?


I gotta agree with ya there a little bit Pete - but for whatever reason - people want that old pushrod twin motor. Yamaha has a couple pushrod motors and maybe Harley could take a lessen there, as they have a lot more horsepower and their frames are much lighter. Lighter bike handles better and makes better use of the available horsepower. It does help the Yamaha that they're 102 and 112 cubic inch motors.

Still, Harley (in the past few years) has made some good progress.

In 2007, everything went fuel-injected.

The big twins went to 96 cubic inches. In my mind, they HAD to.

All the big bikes got 6-speed transmissions, but I (personally) think that they geared up the transmissions too high on the FLH models.

True electronic cruise on the FLH series.
Available electronic theft alarms on everything.
Available ABS and they went to Brehmbo multi-piston calipers. This really, really, improved braking.

Softtail series went to 200 series rear tires, and the FLH touring bikes went from a 140 to a 180.

The Dynas got a new frame in 2006 and the baggers got a new frame in 2009.

Much improved paint. I used to say that Harley could take a lesson in paint from Honda but the last several years of Harleys are sporting some very nice paint, indeed.

They changed up their models substantially and started offering something different from the same old, tired models.

Harley reduced the price of the Dyna and some Softtail models three years in a row. And of course, the market changed from ten years ago and now the dealers cannot gouge the prospective buyer by charging thousands over the MSRP.

A pushrod motor is more compact and typically makes more torque at a lower RPM than an overhead cam v-twin. Yamaha has been marketing a 1600-something CC and an 1800-something CC pushrod motor in their larger bikes and they are air-cooled. Kawasaki has that 2000cc bike with a pushrod motor, but it's water-cooled.

 

[kballowe]

Originally Posted By: OnTheFence
Wow an ugly three wheeler started a Harley vs. the Gook's thread.

My whip your [censored] VTX1800 was loads of fun, you could embarrass just about any vtwin on the road. But..... Honda doesn't take the time to finish the bike. So you end up with cheap looking this that and the other. It beats the [censored] out of you, gets poor gas mileage and is the worst excuse for fuel injection. Instead of improving on what they created, Honda dumped the 1800 vtwin.

Low tech harley on the otherhand has fuel injection that works, parts that look like they belong on a bike and not a scooter. And they work.


Hey hey hey - get back on the VTX board where you belong !!!!

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[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: FLHRGator
I noticed that the number of Harley vs. Metric [censored] matches in this forum went way down when ZGRider and Boraticus stopped frequenting it.



Thanks for the honorable mention.

Sorry for crashing your HD stroking love-in.

 

[JetStar]

Ya know the harley guys owe a little bit to the metric bikes. It was the threat of metric bikes taking HD's market share in the 70's and early 80's that forced HD to improve their bikes or go under. I don't know if any of you are old enough to remember the AMF days, and the import tarif on bikes greater than 750cc's? You are now riding HD bikes that are probably 100X better than those of that era because of those hard lessons.
BTW my 1978 Suzuki GS1000 was purchased new by my uncle. I overhauled the engine in 2007 due to the bike sitting in a lawn shed for 16 years, not because it was worn out. I restored the rest of the bike as well. I was absolutely stunned by the parts that I was still able to get through Suzuki. Not bad for an out of production, non factory supported throw away bike.

 

[Scoot_4_20]

Was that a '78 GS1000E? I bought one new, a 1978 leftover in 1979 for $2850. It was the "E" model with alloy wheels and a black & white tank and a chrome front fender. It was a nice running bike. It came with a Kerker 4 into 1 exhaust - sounded sweet. There weren't a whole lot of bikes around at that time that could whip it's butt.

 

[Scoot_4_20]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog

Harley Davidson also produced a single cylinder. A knockoff of a German DKW. It was called the Hummer. You probably know it better by it's more sucessful spoil of war twin, the BSA Bantam.


Thanks Spazdog for this interesting info.

My friend had an HD 350cc single back in the early 70s, and we rode together when I had my Honda CL350 twin. I never owned an HD. I tried out a red 1974 HD XLCH Sportster for one weekend in March 1977.

 

[boraticus]

"I was absolutely stunned by the parts that I was still able to get through Suzuki. Not bad for an out of production, non factory supported throw away bike."

I've restored a number of Yamaha RDs from the early 70s. No problems with parts whatsoever. Anyone having difficulty finding parts for most Japanese bikes isn't trying too hard.

What I find ironic is that every "flash in the pan" Japanese bike that has come and gone was in most instances a more technically advanced and capable machine the anything HD was producing at the time and that trend continues today.

I think I'd prefer a short lived model that is a reliable and very competent motorcycle vs. an enduring lackluster monument to mediocrity.

 

[BigCahuna]

There's no reason parts shouldn't be available. They made tons of them ,and when the bikes didn't sell,they had all these parts leftover. I keep hearing how great all the metric bikes "were" but where are they now? Long out of production and forgotten.All the high tech engines that cost more to keep running in tune, with all those extra valves and adjustments.If they were "all that"why did they stop making them?The saying goes money talks and for the last 107 years people put there money where their mouth is and buy Harleys.How can you blame them? At least you know they will be around for a while, and not phased out when the next 8 valve triple over and underhead cam comes out from Honda, that nobody will want for more then a week.Getting a reliable, short lived,competent metric bike isn't hard to do just pick any of them.A guy I know just got a ;02 Honda vtx1800 for $4500. Just think in another year or two you'll be able to get then for under $2k. I guess it's because they don't make them anymore.,,

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I keep hearing how great all the metric bikes "were" but where are they now?

They got replaced by newer better models. Why keep producing same old stuff when you can improve on it?

Quote:

Long out of production and forgotten.

If they're forgotten, then why do you keep hearing about them?

Quote:

The saying goes money talks and for the last 107 years people put there money where their mouth is and buy Harleys.

I don't have the latest data, but according to 2007 stats, HD had 28% of the US market share. So that means that majority of the buyers put their money elsewhere. Obviously the majority of the population must all be insane by your definition.

Quote:
At least you know they will be around for a while,

Why do you see it as a problem when a current model gets replaced by a better newer model? Parts will still be available long after, as was noted earlier.

A bigger problem is if the manufacturer goes out of business. Wasn't HD in big financial dire straits just a year or two ago requiring significant help from the tax payers to keep them going? You should be thankful to that other 72% of the US population that is helping to keep your beloved brand on the road. I just wonder how much longer...