Amsoil AZO 0w30 with TAN and TBN - Blackstone Labs
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I'm hoping to hit 15k OCIs with this oil, used in my 2007 Civic EX auto with 1.8L
Been using Amsoil SSO with 10k intervals and pretty good lab results. I hope the new formula performs better.
Who wants to chip in some $$$ so i can send out a sample of SSO to compare to the new AZO formula? I think it should make for an interesting comparison to see how the formula changed.
Been using Amsoil SSO with 10k intervals and pretty good lab results. I hope the new formula performs better.
Who wants to chip in some $$$ so i can send out a sample of SSO to compare to the new AZO formula? I think it should make for an interesting comparison to see how the formula changed.
Thanks for that; good candidate for my friends V8 Tundra. No winter OC would be nice.
Wow! Looks like a stout oil!! Thank you Artem! I was really interested in what the additive pack looked like in this new formulation. You da man!
Thanks Artem. Very robust brew. lol. Nothing we haven't seen before in additives. I like it.
Mobil 1 SN and Amsoil are using very different additive components. Mobil has been lowering Moly/boron, Amsoil has been adding it.
UOA's will be interesting.
Mobil 1 SN and Amsoil are using very different additive components. Mobil has been lowering Moly/boron, Amsoil has been adding it.
UOA's will be interesting.
Yes! Yes! YES!!!
Oh, btw, thanks again!
Oh, btw, thanks again!
Well, I guess everyone is not dumbing down their oils to meet SN...
I have the same question that Artem originally posted, and I haven't yet seen an answer...I was the one who posted the VOAs of Mobil 1 AFE 0W-20 and Mobil 1 5W-30 EP. Both of those had high TANs as well - I had been expecting readings of less than 1.0. Why the high TAN?
I have one vehicle that uses 0W-20, and two that use 5W-30. I'm using the aforementioned Mobil 1 oils for these vehicles.
My intent is to continue with the Mobil 1 SN oils for now, but will closely evaluate after I have performed a few UOAs. If I don't like what I see I may well switch over to the Amsoil. I would be very interested in seeing a VOA of Amsoil's 0W-20 as well.
I have one vehicle that uses 0W-20, and two that use 5W-30. I'm using the aforementioned Mobil 1 oils for these vehicles.
My intent is to continue with the Mobil 1 SN oils for now, but will closely evaluate after I have performed a few UOAs. If I don't like what I see I may well switch over to the Amsoil. I would be very interested in seeing a VOA of Amsoil's 0W-20 as well.
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That is just freakin' awesome!!!
Thank-you!
I NEVER liked how SSO had NO moly or boron in it, and I loved the add-pack on the ASL/ATM oils that used both moly and Boron, and still had high TBN.
Now, they've loaded their 0W-30 product with the 'good stuff'...just great!
(and yes, I know SSO worked great without moly or boron, but I just 'like' the look of it in oil, okay?)
Thank-you!
I NEVER liked how SSO had NO moly or boron in it, and I loved the add-pack on the ASL/ATM oils that used both moly and Boron, and still had high TBN.
Now, they've loaded their 0W-30 product with the 'good stuff'...just great!
(and yes, I know SSO worked great without moly or boron, but I just 'like' the look of it in oil, okay?)
Originally Posted By: btanchors
I have the same question that Artem originally posted, and I haven't yet seen an answer...I was the one who posted the VOAs of Mobil 1 AFE 0W-20 and Mobil 1 5W-30 EP. Both of those had high TANs as well - I had been expecting readings of less than 1.0. Why the high TAN?
I have one vehicle that uses 0W-20, and two that use 5W-30. I'm using the aforementioned Mobil 1 oils for these vehicles.
My intent is to continue with the Mobil 1 SN oils for now, but will closely evaluate after I have performed a few UOAs. If I don't like what I see I may well switch over to the Amsoil. I would be very interested in seeing a VOA of Amsoil's 0W-20 as well.
Yea i'm waiting for someone with some knowledge in the TAN department to answer that question as well. I also thought TAN should start out low in the +/- 1.0 range.
I remember someone saying that once TAN and TBN are equal, the oil should be changed. Well since TAN starts out so high, i'd have to change the oil sooner then 10k (speaking from my past UOA where TAN was 4.4 and TBN 3.1 using SSO after "only" 10,000 miles.
I'm lost.
Anyway, i doubt i'll do a VOA on their 0w20. Seeing as Blackstone's TBN count is so close to what Amsoil posted on their website (12.6) and seeing as ASM has the same count (its also now a Signature Series oil), i think its safe to say the blends should be very similar with just viscosity's being the difference.
I have the same question that Artem originally posted, and I haven't yet seen an answer...I was the one who posted the VOAs of Mobil 1 AFE 0W-20 and Mobil 1 5W-30 EP. Both of those had high TANs as well - I had been expecting readings of less than 1.0. Why the high TAN?
I have one vehicle that uses 0W-20, and two that use 5W-30. I'm using the aforementioned Mobil 1 oils for these vehicles.
My intent is to continue with the Mobil 1 SN oils for now, but will closely evaluate after I have performed a few UOAs. If I don't like what I see I may well switch over to the Amsoil. I would be very interested in seeing a VOA of Amsoil's 0W-20 as well.
Yea i'm waiting for someone with some knowledge in the TAN department to answer that question as well. I also thought TAN should start out low in the +/- 1.0 range.
I remember someone saying that once TAN and TBN are equal, the oil should be changed. Well since TAN starts out so high, i'd have to change the oil sooner then 10k (speaking from my past UOA where TAN was 4.4 and TBN 3.1 using SSO after "only" 10,000 miles.
Anyway, i doubt i'll do a VOA on their 0w20. Seeing as Blackstone's TBN count is so close to what Amsoil posted on their website (12.6) and seeing as ASM has the same count (its also now a Signature Series oil), i think its safe to say the blends should be very similar with just viscosity's being the difference.
Originally Posted By: JasonBraswell
Well, I guess everyone is not dumbing down their oils to meet SN...
Looks like it. For the price Amsoil ask for their oil, i'd expect nothing less though and i'm glad the oil is still LOADED with the good stuff.
Now if it was $5 a quart at Walmart, it would most likely be a different story.
Well, I guess everyone is not dumbing down their oils to meet SN...
Looks like it. For the price Amsoil ask for their oil, i'd expect nothing less though and i'm glad the oil is still LOADED with the good stuff.
Now if it was $5 a quart at Walmart, it would most likely be a different story.
Ummm no I don't think so. Additives do not always show via VOA's. No dumbing down. Why would you dumb down an oil to meet a more stringent spec?
This oil looks great though and will hold up very well. They boosted their GF-4 additive package.
This oil looks great though and will hold up very well. They boosted their GF-4 additive package.
Originally Posted By: Artem
Yea i'm waiting for someone with some knowledge in the TAN department to answer that question as well. I also thought TAN should start out low in the +/- 1.0 range.
I remember someone saying that once TAN and TBN are equal, the oil should be changed. Well since TAN starts out so high, i'd have to change the oil sooner then 10k (speaking from my past UOA where TAN was 4.4 and TBN 3.1 using SSO after "only" 10,000 miles.
I'm lost.
This is a pretty good read:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1052/acid-number-test
Pay attention in detail to the strong acids vs. weak acids when thinking about TBN vs TAN and the measurement techniques. The two numbers are not equivalent. Also, Molakule has some good write ups on TAN in early BITOG if my memory is working at all. So there is no automatic rule when TAN crosses TBN etc. Lubes are formulated with weakly acidic additives and even some base oils may behave as weak acids, and will give a TAN reading - but as long as there remains some neutralizing base (TBN) the oil as a whole is not “acidic”. The largest problem in this discussion is the human reaction to the word “acid”, but we need to think in terms of oil as a complex solution. Some of the components of oils being very slightly acidic (behave chemically as an acid), but in a system are not behaving as a corrosive acid or worse.
Yea i'm waiting for someone with some knowledge in the TAN department to answer that question as well. I also thought TAN should start out low in the +/- 1.0 range.
I remember someone saying that once TAN and TBN are equal, the oil should be changed. Well since TAN starts out so high, i'd have to change the oil sooner then 10k (speaking from my past UOA where TAN was 4.4 and TBN 3.1 using SSO after "only" 10,000 miles.
This is a pretty good read:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1052/acid-number-test
Pay attention in detail to the strong acids vs. weak acids when thinking about TBN vs TAN and the measurement techniques. The two numbers are not equivalent. Also, Molakule has some good write ups on TAN in early BITOG if my memory is working at all. So there is no automatic rule when TAN crosses TBN etc. Lubes are formulated with weakly acidic additives and even some base oils may behave as weak acids, and will give a TAN reading - but as long as there remains some neutralizing base (TBN) the oil as a whole is not “acidic”. The largest problem in this discussion is the human reaction to the word “acid”, but we need to think in terms of oil as a complex solution. Some of the components of oils being very slightly acidic (behave chemically as an acid), but in a system are not behaving as a corrosive acid or worse.
^oooooh. Makes sense.
I suspected that a high TAN count couldn't be THAT bad or else B/S labs wouldn't have suggested i run the oil higher.
Im beginning to wonder if getting a TAN count is even worth it. I mean, unless the numbers spike to 10 (very acidic??) and seeing as the starting TAN of new oil is so high, i think i'll save the $10 next time and skip the TAN.
I suspected that a high TAN count couldn't be THAT bad or else B/S labs wouldn't have suggested i run the oil higher.
Im beginning to wonder if getting a TAN count is even worth it. I mean, unless the numbers spike to 10 (very acidic??) and seeing as the starting TAN of new oil is so high, i think i'll save the $10 next time and skip the TAN.
I read the reference that Pablo provided above (Thanks Pablo!)
It suggests the initial TAN is caused by the additives (no surprise there, since this is a VOA not a UOA). The article then suggests that as these additives are depleted, their contribution to the TAN number will start to decrease. This means to me that if all other things were held constant, the TAN number would decrease over time.
As we know, all other things are NOT equal, and as the oil is used, combustion by-products will tend to increase the TAN as the oil ages.
What this suggests to me is that the TAN number will not behave like the TBN number. In fact, for awhile, TAN may well decrease or stay pretty close to constant for quite awhile, then eventually start to increase.
I find this very interesting, and I plan to have both TAN and TBN performed on my new vehicle once it's done with the break-in process.
It suggests the initial TAN is caused by the additives (no surprise there, since this is a VOA not a UOA). The article then suggests that as these additives are depleted, their contribution to the TAN number will start to decrease. This means to me that if all other things were held constant, the TAN number would decrease over time.
As we know, all other things are NOT equal, and as the oil is used, combustion by-products will tend to increase the TAN as the oil ages.
What this suggests to me is that the TAN number will not behave like the TBN number. In fact, for awhile, TAN may well decrease or stay pretty close to constant for quite awhile, then eventually start to increase.
I find this very interesting, and I plan to have both TAN and TBN performed on my new vehicle once it's done with the break-in process.
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