Any Reason TO NOT USE A 0W-XX oil?????

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: dlafoy


When one particular oil(0w) is able to flow quicker upon startup than another particular oil( 10w) and as a result of this quicker flow your engine's internals receive the protection of oil sooner than another oil could give it, hence the term "BeTTeR" .


So if something is "better" then where are the engines that have been damaged over the decades using non 0 weight oils? Where are inferior oils not protecting the engine parts on start up since they don't flow "quicker" than 0 weight oils?

Which model engine is dry when starting up and they NEED the "better" 0 weight oils for protection?

I don't fall for marketing so I'd love to have these simple questions covered. Because if it was true (ie "case closed") that 0 weight oils were "better" every mfg would require its use and every oil company would make only 0 weight oils.

Originally Posted By: RegDunlop
Bill not sure where you were insulted.
Read the PM I sent you.

Bill

 

[RegDunlop]

Bill you PM'd me saying the insult was in red. Still not sure where the insult was or is or how that will get me time away from the board?

Also the science and objectivity of it all states that 0w oils protect BETTER inever stated or wanted to start a thread about how millions of engines were damaged by 5w or 10w oils. That would have been a different thread entirely.

Just looking for factual reasons why a zero w oil should not be used

So far two

1 cost
2 warranty on newer engine/car


That's it. Anybody else have a valid reason why 0w oils should NOT be used

 

[dlafoy]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: dlafoy


When one particular oil(0w) is able to flow quicker upon startup than another particular oil( 10w) and as a result of this quicker flow your engine's internals receive the protection of oil sooner than another oil could give it, hence the term "BeTTeR" .


So if something is "better" then where are the engines that have been damaged over the decades using non 0 weight oils? Where are inferior oils not protecting the engine parts on start up since they don't flow "quicker" than 0 weight oils?

Which model engine is dry when starting up and they NEED the "better" 0 weight oils for protection?

I don't fall for marketing so I'd love to have these simple questions covered. Because if it was true (ie "case closed") that 0 weight oils were "better" every mfg would require its use and every oil company would make only 0 weight oils.

Originally Posted By: RegDunlop
Bill not sure where you were insulted.
Read the PM I sent you.

Bill


Where are all of those damaged engines you ask? Probably in a junkyard.

Seriously, just b/c one particular oil may be able to offer slightly better startup protection than another oil does not mean there is visible damage that the naked eye
can see.

What engines are dry upon start-up you ask? I don't know about you Bill, but my mouth is dry when I first wake up in the morning and try to start it, so I assume engines are the same way. Lol

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: dlafoy


What engines are dry upon start-up you ask? I don't know about you Bill, but my mouth is dry when I first wake up in the morning and try to start it, so I assume engines are the same way. Lol


Well that make more sense than most of this thread.

Really my point is that 0 weight oils are NOT going to make any difference in most engines that we see here in any temps that conUSA has. The UOAs (which some believe in and some don't) show the same results with a 5w-x vs 0w-x and even more important the engines show that using oil works. They could care less if its a 0w or 5w on the label.

Now the MFG may care if warranty work is needed as that is one more box on the checklist to fill in.

Originally Posted By: RegDunlop
Bill you PM'd me saying the insult was in red. Still not sure where the insult was or is or how that will get me time away from the board?

Also the science and objectivity of it all states that 0w oils protect BETTER inever stated or wanted to start a thread about how millions of engines were damaged by 5w or 10w oils. That would have been a different thread entirely.

Just looking for factual reasons why a zero w oil should not be used

So far two

1 cost
2 warranty on newer engine/car


That's it. Anybody else have a valid reason why 0w oils should NOT be used


A few things since you are new here. If someone sends you a PM to help you out I'd suggest you REPLY in the PM since the person sent you something that needed to be discussed off the board. So go back to the PM and let's continue that part of this there.

As far as 0w oils why they should not be used. Its been discussed here and you ignore the replies so please stop asking the same question over.

Bill

 

[Papa Bear]

Only on BITOG would people resort to dueling pistols over 0W-5W perceived benefits .......

 

[dlafoy]

Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Only on BITOG would people resort to dueling pistols over 0W-5W perceived benefits .......





I know. I'm sure glad I didn't involve myself in such " ToM FooLeRY ".

 

[addyguy]

Reason not to use 0W oil?

Availability. Even tho I'm up in Canada where it's real cold in winter, there is BARELY any 0W oil on the shelves - it's ALL 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, and to a lesser degree, 10W-40 and 20W-50.

So, you want to know how bad it is? There is more 10W-40 and 20W-50 on the shelves that 0W-20 and 0W-30!!!

 

[dparm]

Addyguy, you guys don't have any of the M1 EP stuff like 0w20/0w30? What about "German" Castrol Syntec 0w30?

 

[RegDunlop]

Bill I see no need at all to PM you about anything. Thanks, but no thanks.

You seem like you know what you're talking about so let me ask you this if you had a choice between a 0w and 5 or 10w in front of you and price was the same which would you use?

 

[RegDunlop]

Oh yeah bill why don't you explain how this thread makes no sense? Because it was good until you tried to derail it with nonsense about engines getting destroyed by 10w oil.

The 3 valid reasons so far:
1 price
2 warranty
3 availability

 

[exranger06]

I think what RegDunlop wants to know, (and I would really like to hear the answer to this as well), is does a 0w-xx oil have a DISADVANTAGE over a 5w-xx or 10w-xx oil? (BESIDES cost and availabilty!!). Sure, a 0w-xx may not exactly be NECESSARY in most climates, but are there any shortcomings with it or any reason why a 5w-xx would perform better? (regardless of whether the difference is negligible/appreciable)

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: RegDunlop
Bill I see no need at all to PM you about anything. Thanks, but no thanks.

You seem like you know what you're talking about so let me ask you this if you had a choice between a 0w and 5 or 10w in front of you and price was the same which would you use?


Since I deal with the real world and your question is not no answer.

But I've used both 0w and 5w and no difference in any way in one engine I use. The only reason I used the 0w is it was on sale. I use 5w oils with no worries. Before that I used 10w oils and got plenty of trouble free miles with not an single issue.

The PM was to help you. Since you feel you need no assistance then fine.

Bill

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: RegDunlop
Oh yeah bill why don't you explain how this thread makes no sense? Because it was good until you tried to derail it with nonsense about engines getting destroyed by 10w oil.

The 3 valid reasons so far:
1 price
2 warranty
3 availability



Someone is not having a good day. I'd suggest you calm down.

Now let's review.

Originally Posted By: RegDunlop
Just re-reading the Motor Oil tutorial ( aka Motor Oil University) on the main pages and it sounds like in every case a 0W-XX oil will always benefit an engine more than ANY 5W-XX oil or 10W-XX oil, as the 0W-XX oil is ALWAYS thinner at start up ,and therefore will get up to operating temps faster.

The oil lubricates better at operating temps. AND if it is thinner at room temp ( sop to speak) it will cause less wear and tear on the starter and battery .

Right?


And I answered that 0w oils are not needed and history shows that engines get along just fine for a LONG time using 5w (and before those came out) 10w oils. If 0w oils are "better" then that must mean that all the other non 0w oils are "poor". If they are "poor/inferior" then there must be damage being done. Where is that data?

Please show me where I "derailed" this thread? The thread was "good" until I answered? I answered on the SECOND post so your post it is good and mine is bad?

Interesting.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: RegDunlop
Just re-reading the Motor Oil tutorial ( aka Motor Oil University) on the main pages and it sounds like in every case a 0W-XX oil will always benefit an engine more than ANY 5W-XX oil or 10W-XX oil, as the 0W-XX oil is ALWAYS thinner at start up ,and therefore will get up to operating temps faster.

The oil lubricates better at operating temps. AND if it is thinner at room temp ( sop to speak) it will cause less wear and tear on the starter and battery .

Right?


Higher cost is about the only reason. And I would always do a little research here to make sure that the 0wXX oil holds up well in UOAs, doesn't shear excessively, etc. The general thinking is that as of today most 0wXX oils have to be made with better base stocks than 5wXX in order to get a high VI. But that could change and some manufacturer might start compensating with more VIIs rather than a good base stock to save cost.

Functionally, 5wXX oils are just fine for most climates.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: 660mag
I'm kinda new at all this, but in a bout between 10w30 vs 0w30, if shear stability were something of utmost importance to a particular engine in a specific oci goal , than in theory wouldn't the 10w30 be the winner?


Intuitively, yes. In practice, not necessarily. You can make an acceptable 10w30 with a low VI basestock and a dose of VIIs. 0w30 oils typically have to start with very high quality base stocks with high inherent VI, so its quite possible to get a 10w30 oil that is LESS shear stable than a 0w30. But there are also very good 10w30s out there- it all comes down to the particular oil and how it is made. You can't really make sweeping generalizations.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
I think what RegDunlop wants to know, (and I would really like to hear the answer to this as well), is does a 0w-xx oil have a DISADVANTAGE over a 5w-xx or 10w-xx oil? (BESIDES cost and availabilty!!). Sure, a 0w-xx may not exactly be NECESSARY in most climates, but are there any shortcomings with it or any reason why a 5w-xx would perform better? (regardless of whether the difference is negligible/appreciable)


We need to get off the "better" (more marketing drool) and discuss (which we are) the points of 0w vs 5w oil. 0w is NOT "better" and most engines are not going to operate any different with 0w vs 5w oils.

And yes cost and availability (REAL data/facts) are disadvantages of 0w vs 5w. Will using a 0w oil DAMAGE your engine? IMO no but neither will using it make your engine last longer.

Bill

 

[wallyuwl]

I've noticed several posters in this thread list "Motor Oil University" linked to on the main BITOG page to support their position, as if it is an infallable reference. I'm a scientist, and a "real" reference is a scientific peer-reviewed paper. And even those are not infallable. I read through the MOU, and really, it is just some guy's opinions and anecdotes. He even admits so on the first (101) page. It is written pretty incoherently, too. I'm not saying the guy's opinions/statements are right or wrong, but they shouldn't be taken as Gospel, either.

 

[BobFout]

Any questions?

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
I think what RegDunlop wants to know, (and I would really like to hear the answer to this as well), is does a 0w-xx oil have a DISADVANTAGE over a 5w-xx or 10w-xx oil? (BESIDES cost and availabilty!!). Sure, a 0w-xx may not exactly be NECESSARY in most climates, but are there any shortcomings with it or any reason why a 5w-xx would perform better? (regardless of whether the difference is negligible/appreciable)


What's the point of taking cost out of the equation and still being concerned with negligible differences. Like everything there are tradeoffs and cost is one of them. It's like asking "why doesn't everyone use the best most expensive oil available (cost aside)".

The basic story is that all other things being equal (read for a given cost) that a 0WXX oil will usually have worse performance under high load and high temperature, specifically due to shearing of the viscosity improvers.

For example, one way to make a 0W30 oil is to start with a very thin oil and then add viscosity improvers to get the 30 specifications at higher temperatures. The problem is that these viscosity improvers "shear down" over time and the oil losses some high temperature protection.

Alternatively you can go for improved or synthetic base oils to get a 0W30 oil without using more viscosity improvers, but it will cost more. So it comes down to a tradeoff between cost and shear stability. You cant remove cost from the equation and still have a sensible answer.

This is the reason why ambient temperatures are relevant to the decision. You're making a trade-off and the colder the climate you're in the more potential you have to gain from the 0W aspect, the warmer the climate then the less potential you have to gain.

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: dlafoy
It's all evolution people. As oil companies research more effective oils, the oils transformed from 10w to 5w. Then as oil companies did even more R&D the oils began to evolve even more, hence the transformation from 5w to 0w. To my understanding if something evolves it becomes better. For example man evolved from monkeys and I would like to think that man is "better" than monkeys.


Too much emphasis on oil grade and not enough on oil specs. I'm gonna go change my oil with API SE 10w40, be back later.