Best 0W-20 readily available?

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Originally Posted By: weebl
Really? Unless your cost for M1 is really not significantly different, I would imagine something like PYB in Florida would serve you fine

I'm sure it would do fine. But:

1. M1 0w20 is $24.50 per 5QT jug. Even at 50+ mpg, 10,000 miles worth of gasoline is $750. 10,000 miles of M1 0w20 is about $18. The cheapest WM conventional would be about $8.00. A $10 difference. The cost of oil is just not significant. I don't understand why anyone would focus on such a triviality.

2. I travel a great deal, having driven over 100,000 miles in the last 20 months. (~50,000 in the Sprint. ~50,000 in the Yaris.) I get around a great deal, and spend a lot of time in New Mexico, Colorado, and Wyoming.(And some Montana.)

3. I also rather prize the Prius-beating 52 mpg (ranging up to over 60 mpg depending upon conditions) I typically get on the highway in the Sprint Metro. Little refinements like 0w20 AFE, Pennzoil Synchromesh in the transaxle, and being sure the O2 sensor is replaced on schedule, do add up.

Also, I've gotten demonstrably excellent wear results from Mobil's AFE line, as I've posted here.
 
I called my dealer up and they can sell me a case of 0W20 for $72+tax... Final cost of $77.58, or about $6.47 per quart.

Still waiting back to hear from my brother to see if he gets any type of discount.
 
Originally Posted By: xBa380
My brother works at a Toyota dealership at a sales rep, so I am having him check to see what price he can get a case of 0W20 oil for

A couple of notes on this. The retail price *was* $6.79 per qt. However, it has recently dropped to $5.03 per quart. I attribute this to Toyota trying to head off any user backlash from their recent switch to requiring 0w20 in certain models. (Owners were grumbling about the increased oil cost, despite the fact that OCI's were simultaneously lengthened from 5k to 10k miles when using 0w20.)

Also, last I heard, Toyota was expecting a supply problem due to limited availability of a required additive due to the earthquake crisis in Japan. Possibly through August is what I've heard. I've already bought myself a case for the Yaris, to be safe.
 
Originally Posted By: Spockian1
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I've used the Toyota 0W-20 and it shears about 10% (oil pressure drop) within the first 150 miles of being in service but then stabilizes.

Not to criticize. But a couple of things strike me as limitations of using oil pressure as a measure of oil viscosity.

1. It seems a bit of a crude measurement. ("Crude" as in "rough".)

2. It says more about kinematic viscosity than HT/HS. My understanding is that VII improvers do not manifest (as) much effect under high shear conditions. So if the lubricant package shears 10%, I'd expect a smaller effect on the HT/HS. Which, IMO, is a far more important number than the kinematic viscosities.

There is a very real problem, I think, in the fact that the information which gets published about oils is largely useless or misleading. From KV40 and KV100, we get a number called VI. But is it really useful? To the extent that interpolating between 40C (104F) and 100C (212F) is useful, we're on pretty solid ground.



Brace yourself, Spockian1, you've jumped into the deep end here.
Caterham has done much independent research into the relationship of HTHS to engine oil pressure and he has shown that HTHS correlates better to oil pressure in a running engine than kinematic viscosity.
 
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Originally Posted By: Spockian1
From the popularity of API viscosity classes (XwXX), all the way down to the most detailed numbers that get published, the system seems totally [censored]. And I see no indication that there is any effort at all to fix any of it.



I agree with you in that the API system of viscosity classification doesn't provide a reliable method of calculating oil viscosity at the cold start temperatures that most people in the US experience. But you can rest assured that if you are using a 5W or 10W oil that has passed API cold cranking and pumpability tests at -30C and -25C, it will safely lubricate your engine at -15C. (When was the last time it got that cold in Miami?)
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
...he has shown that HTHS correlates better to oil pressure in a running engine than kinematic viscosity.

That's certainly possible. The fact that HTHS correlates better to to engine friction than KV100 does suggests that at the working surfaces, the temperature is closer to 150C than to 100C. (And/or that the high shear aspect of that workload plays a part.)

If the true overall working temperature of the oil is higher than 100C, then I would expect HTHS might correlate better with oil pressure.

However, I would still expect HTHS to be less affected by VII breakdown compared to the KV. That is, assuming that it is true that VII's have less effect in the relatively two dimensional world of high shear.

Just for fun, assuming that HTHS correlates well with oil pressure, VII's have less effect in high shear conditions, and that the HTHS of Toyota 0w20 drops 10% with use, one might make the prediction that the KV of T0w20 drops more than 10% over the same period.

Of course, at this point, we would be piling supposition upon supposition.
 
Originally Posted By: Spockian1
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
...he has shown that HTHS correlates better to oil pressure in a running engine than kinematic viscosity.

However, I would still expect HTHS to be less affected by VII breakdown compared to the KV. That is, assuming that it is true that VII's have less effect in the relatively two dimensional world of high shear.

Just for fun, assuming that HTHS correlates well with oil pressure, VII's have less effect in high shear conditions, and that the HTHS of Toyota 0w20 drops 10% with use, one might make the prediction that the KV of T0w20 drops more than 10% over the same period.



I'm not sure what direction you are coming from in your argument. Are you saying that Viscosity Index Improvers should help HTHS, or that HTHS should be the same whether or not an oil contains them?

Use of low-quality VII's in the 1970's are what what prompted the development of the HTHS measurement. The problem was that engines were suffering lube-related failures even though the multi-grade oils supposedly had sufficient viscosity. It was found that low-viscosity base stocks that were being fortified with large amounts of VII to meet 10w40 (for example) kinematic viscosity specs actually had 30-weight viscosity when they were subjected to high-shear conditions. In general, oils that have lower VII content retain more of their viscosity when they are sheared between moving surfaces.
 
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Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I'm not sure what direction you are coming from in your argument.

"Line of thinking" would be the term I'd more likely choose.

Quote:
In general, oils that have lower VII content retain more of their viscosity when they are sheared between moving surfaces

Which is another way of saying that VII additives have more of a thickening effect on KV than on HTHS. (Which makes sense since when pressed flat,the VII molecules are not as free to tangle with each other.)

If that is true. And if it is fair to say that Toyota 0w20's HTHS drops proportionally to oil pressure, and thus 10% in CATERHAM's example application... and if that drop is due to damage to the VII, then I would expect to see a greater percentage drop in KV100 and VI.

Lots of variables there, though.
 
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I stopped by a O'Reillys Auto today, and again, not a single 0W20 in sight... My brother contacted me back though on the Toyota 0W20 and is able to get a case for $51+tax, versus the $72+tax at my normal dealer. So I had him pick up a case for me. Comes down to $4.58 a quart, which is good enough for me!

I can't believe how hard it is to find 0W20 though, I know Autozone here does not carry it either. Madness!
 
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Originally Posted By: xBa380
I can't believe how hard it is to find 0W20 though, I know Autozone here does not carry it either. Madness!

Ya. I usually end up with 5W-20 or 5W-30. Maybe in ten years when more cars ar spec'ing 0W...
 
Why is that 0W20 and 0W30 can be found at many auto parts stores and at Walmart in So Cal of all places, and it is hard to find in much colder places like Iowa, Ohio ... ? the one 0W20 brand is hard to find is Pennzoil Platinum.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Why is that 0W20 and 0W30 can be found at many auto parts stores and at Walmart in So Cal of all places, and it is hard to find in much colder places like Iowa, Ohio ... ? the one 0W20 brand is hard to find is Pennzoil Platinum.


I'm having a hard time figuring that out too. As far as PP 0W20, I've heard about it, but never seen it. Sopus really dropped the ball with the 0W-xx oils. They basically gave M1 the 0W-xx market, which is small but growing. IMO that's a bad move in the oil wars.
 
Stay with a 5w20 oil

Cleveland does not get cold enough to warrant a 0w20

5w will flow at -30 or more you do not need more IMO
 
Been using 0W 20 here in GA. for a while without issue. Cold is not the issue - Oil flow a few seconds earlier at start up is the most significant reason to use 0W oil over 5W or 10 W oil . Multiply that times every morning you start your car for a number of years could possibly make a difference in wear . On the other hand , if 0W oil didn't come in a 5 qrt jug at WM I would use a 5W oil and sleep well at night ...
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Why is that 0W20 and 0W30 can be found at many auto parts stores and at Walmart in So Cal of all places, and it is hard to find in much colder places like Iowa, Ohio ... ? the one 0W20 brand is hard to find is Pennzoil Platinum.

Can't speak for Ohio, but Iowa seems to be behind the times on everything. Even Walmart only had 3 quarts of Synpower 0W-20, my prefered off-the-shelf brand. Not enough to do a single oil change, so why even carry it?
Well I drive fairly hard on the highway most of the time, so no biggy. I take advantage of my Tacoma 4 cylinder's exception in the OM that says a higher viscosity oil may be better for harder driving, and use 5W-30.
 
My new Accord will be running PU 5w20 for the summer months, and either M1 0w20 or Edge 0w20 in the winter. Only reason for the PU use is that I have alot of it in my stash, and want to be able to use it up. I can't see it making the slightest bit of difference on a 90 degree day versus 0w20. Once it's gone, it'll be the M1 or Edge, depending on sales and future rebates.
 
I put Toyota 0W20 in my xB for the first time today and it runs really nice... Less noise then the PU 5w20 I have used the last two OCI's. I know noise means nothing, but I like a quiet engine!

I also notice that this oil appears to be thinner then PP 0w20 (which I have two quarts of on hand)... Is this true or just my imagination?
smile.gif
 
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