high friction modifiers in honda auto?

[94exa2]

hey guys, ive been looking into "aftermarket" atf for my 94 civic m24a auto trans and have read alot about high friction modifiers (hfm from now on), like the lubegard hfm additive,black bottle. what does adding hfm to an atf do? allow the cluthces to "slip more", or would adding hfm make the clutches slip less and grab harder,firmer?

im confused about adding an hfm to my atf...

 

[Ken2]

The additives in the fluid must match the friction materials on the clutches inside the automatic transmission. The transmission makers determine how to make a fluid that gives the required action with the materials they use. The near-universal ATFs sold on the aftermarket have additives in them so they almost meet the manufacturers' specs and give good service in most transmissions. The HFM additive is to convert Dexron-III ATF into a highly friction modified ATF like Honda's fluid and several others. It is mainly for shops that don't want to bother to stock multiple fluids. These days the HFM additive is pretty much obsolete with the many excellent near-universal fluids that already have the correct additives in them. If the fluid you choose is recommended for transmissions that use the fluid specified in your car, you're good to go with nothing else to buy.

 

[94exa2]

i was just wondering if adding the lubegard HFM (black bottle) to the ATF would make it essentially "slip more", or would it make it "slip less"?

 

[94exa2]

Originally Posted By: 94exa2
i was just wondering if adding the lubegard HFM (black bottle) to the ATF would make it essentially "slip more", or would it make it "slip less"?


thats all i'm trying to figure out about the HFM additive. iff adding it to the amsoil atf will make it slip more, causing more heat and wear i do not want to add it, but if adding hfm to the atf will make it slip less, cause less heat/wear i def want to add the hfm even if it makes the shifts a lil firmer than it "should" be...

 

[mattd]

many people have had great turnouts with redline D4 and redline type F ATF. I plan on doing this in the very very near future.

 

[thrace]

More friction modifier means more slip.

Lubegard black and friction modifiers in ATF make the clutches slip more, especially when very very close to engaging fully.

You can see this in the graph on the Lubegard site.

http://www.lubegard.com/images/HFM_Legend_Expanded.gif

These graphs show friction decreases as clutches come closer to fully engaging with Dexron, ATF+4 and Lubegard added to Dexron.

Contrast this with Type F. Friction increases as clutches get closer. See article
http://www.studebaker-info.org/PDF/44_TN4_8.PDF

Why reduce friction? Shudder can occur more easily if friction increases as the clutches get closer and closer to fully engaging as with Type F. You may feel shuddering as grab-slip-grab-slip. By reducing friction when very very close to engaging, you get some slip but not grab-slip. So no shuddering felt. The whole system should be designed to work with the correct fluid. Transmissions designed for Type F do not shudder. Lock up torque converters are more sensitive to shudder than most other clutches in most transmissions so new transmission fluids with FM's were developed when lock up torque converters arrived. However, more friction modifier is not always better. Slip can occur.

94 Accord owners manual calls for DexronII which is not available and has some friction modifier. Only later Hondas from at least 1996 to 2010 called for Z1 which is highly friction modified, which means has more friction modifier than any Dexron.

One way to classify friction modifiers in ATF is None, Some, High.
Type F: none
Dexron (any type): some
Mercon V: higher than Dexron
ATF+4 or +3, Honda Z-1, some other manufacturer specific fluids : high

However friction modifiers do reduce friction and increase slip. Slip means rubbing and wearing of clutches. Too much FM's can be bad. And some Honda Acura owners have even resorted to using Type F in their auto transmissions. They claim less slip, no shudder, and less clutch dust on the drain plug magnet. I hope this will pan out as some Honda Acura transmissions tend to fail early and often.
http://tl.acurazine.com/forums/showthrea...ighlight=TYPE+F

 

[Letter_K]

thrace - Thanks for the excellent post of FM. You also found a good graph on the LubeGard site I hadn't seen yet.

They also have a link to a good article ( a little dated) about fluid from the November 2004 Transmission Digest.

 

[94exa2]

i guess i will not be using the lubegard hfm additive then...slip=bad in my opinion.

so i guess just amsoil synthetic multi vehicle atf? kool. hopefully it will cause less slip than the 2/3 z1 - 1/3 mobil1 atf thats in the trans now.

 

[FZ1]

Best to use the Honda brand atf in your Honda. Hondas can be finicky.

 

[94exa2]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Best to use the Honda brand atf in your Honda. Hondas can be finicky.


thats what i used to run, then wanted to try mobil1 for the [censored] of it and def like the shifts better with mobil.

ill just try like 9qts of amsoil, or 6 amsoil, 3 z1?

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: 94exa2
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Best to use the Honda brand atf in your Honda. Hondas can be finicky.


thats what i used to run, then wanted to try mobil1 for the [censored] of it and def like the shifts better with mobil.

ill just try like 9qts of amsoil, or 6 amsoil, 3 z1?


1994 Honda is not craving Z1. Amsoil ATF straight up is best. Where are you getting the ATF? Contact me for the best price.

 

[spiderbypass]

I have used Redline D-4 with bottle of lubeguard black in my wife's 2003 Honda Accord automatic transmission.... with a magnefine inline filter..vehicle has nearly 160,000-she speeds up slow down...car shifts wonderfully...I am conservative with fluid changes usually every 20-25 thousand miles change filter and fluids..

 

[mattd]

i wish i could put in an inline filter....my car has no transmission lines

 

[nicholas]

no lines running to your radiator ? strange.

 

[mattd]

No. Internally cooled. Got to love V6 honda transmissions...at least some later models...Cant remember if the 8th generation accords have trans lines or not...but my 2007 does not.

 

[Letter_K]

Originally Posted By: mattd
i wish i could put in an inline filter....my car has no transmission lines

Check carefully under the air box. Some V6 2007 did have a serviceable transmission filter. Can't post the link because of advertising, but try googling
"2007 honda accord transmission filter"

 

[mattd]

Yes, i changed that filter just recently when i changed the fluid. i was going to do a DIY for it for everyone on here, but couldnt find a camera that day. I plan on changing this filter about once per year.

Its funny how no honda dealer will ever recommend changing it, yet is quite easy to change. It only took me about 20 minutes. Dealers will not stock it, either. Special order...even though its only 12$. And its extremely small as far as filters go. Better than nothing i suppose!

The lines are steel. I would have to cut them, and make fittings somehow. Not really worth it. If there were transmission lines to the radiator with constant tension clamps...i'd be all for it.

 

[eagle23]

[[The lines are steel. I would have to cut them, and make fittings somehow. Not really worth it. If there were transmission lines to the radiator with constant tension clamps...i'd be all for it. ]] [/quote]

+1. I also have a 2007 V6 Accord. Like you, I changed the factory filter under the airbox, and it wasn't a problem. I bought a Magnefine filter then have chickened out when it came to cutting the tubes and plumbing in hydraulic hose.

I know it can be done but it isn't accessible like it is on the 4 cyls, and you'd have to really look for a leak to see it. I keep having mightmares about traveling a backcountry road while the tranny quietly empties itself of fluid...

 

[mattd]

I hear you on that one.

 

[Ram01]

oh [censored] no