FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits

[Audi Junkie]

Ok, after reading everything, if according to Lubrizol, low saps oils reduce intake valve deposits, why did the UK Jetta have them running Edge 5w-30? Likely the long 19k miles interval was an issue.

Right now, I have a 2010 TSI w/500 miles and I don't know what to do. I'd run a cc, but that would rip into any warranty claims. I'd like to have some faith that VW improved the system, but who knows. Extended warranty would not do anything to clean the valves, until it misfires it's an aesthetic issue!

Fuel quality and OC intervals will have to be the solution available. I plan 4 month intervals, maybe 3-5k max for me. I have a bunch of different synth oils to use, they should not be stressed, ordinarily.

I have Top-Tier fuel here, that's what the manual calls for so I guess that's what I will use exclusively. My Tiguan sat on the lot for 8 months, so I hit it w/2 bottles of Techron right off the bat, and it did wake the engine up! I usually run 2 cycle oil in my gas, do people think this is a good idea? Seems like it can only help.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Ok, after reading everything, if according to Lubrizol, low saps oils reduce intake valve deposits, why did the UK Jetta have them running Edge 5w-30? Likely the long 19k miles interval was an issue.



Because it is a Low SAPS oil that meets 507/507

The US Castrol EDGE is not the same as Euro EDGE.


http://www.castrol.com/castrol/productdetailmin.do?categoryId=9014072&contentId=7027058

 

[UG_Passat]

..also P.S. 2.0T engines do not have EGR.

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
..also P.S. 2.0T engines do not have EGR.


How do they meet emissions w/o EGR?

 

[zoomzoom]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Ok, after reading everything, if according to Lubrizol, low saps oils reduce intake valve deposits, why did the UK Jetta have them running Edge 5w-30? Likely the long 19k miles interval was an issue.

Right now, I have a 2010 TSI w/500 miles and I don't know what to do. I'd run a cc, but that would rip into any warranty claims. I'd like to have some faith that VW improved the system, but who knows. Extended warranty would not do anything to clean the valves, until it misfires it's an aesthetic issue!

Fuel quality and OC intervals will have to be the solution available. I plan 4 month intervals, maybe 3-5k max for me. I have a bunch of different synth oils to use, they should not be stressed, ordinarily.

I have Top-Tier fuel here, that's what the manual calls for so I guess that's what I will use exclusively. My Tiguan sat on the lot for 8 months, so I hit it w/2 bottles of Techron right off the bat, and it did wake the engine up! I usually run 2 cycle oil in my gas, do people think this is a good idea? Seems like it can only help.


better get ready to seafoam the [censored] out of it before every oil change

 

[Steven_Oakes]

Hi All,

I know this is an old thread.. but wanted to contribute. I am from Australia and own an Audi A4 2005.

This issue is definitely caused by oil ingestion through the intake manifold via the PCV system. It doesn't matter what oil you use. Ive owned numerous cars (all port injected though) and none of them consumed oil like my Audi does.

I see the problem as two-fold:
1) Oil buildup on intake valves.
2) Excessive oil consumption.

Whether you care about oil deposits on the valves or not is one thing, but separate to that the engines consume abnormally large amounts of oil. I use half a litre every 5,000 klms, no car I have ever owned used anywhere near that, I have never needed to "top up" between oil changes, and the concept of having to do this is *completely* foreign to me. I would only expect oil consumption as a measurable amount, requiring topping up.. to happen on extremely old engines with significant wear. I am yet to explain why this is the case, with a relatively "new" engine..

We can solve the oil deposits, use a catch can like the provent 200 and vent back to the intake.

I dont consider venting to the atmosphere acceptable. Im not the biggest tree hugger in the world, but I aim for a solution that stops deposits, maintains the emissions controls in the car AND ALSO explaining the large oil consumption. VTA catch cans only achieve one of these aims, is lazy, illegal and poor engineering. All my opinion, but there you have it, I am a perfectionist.

The 2nd point I have not fully researched. Why are these engines consuming so much oil through the crankcase ventilation system?

The following questions need answering:
- Is there larger amounts of blow by in the Audi engines? (More air volume through PCV, hence more oil loss?)
- If so, why and what can be done about it?
- Is the location of the various connections non-ideal, such as the location of the breather hose being directly in front of the turbo? (On boost, is too much vacuum applied to the crankcase?, pulling too much crank/oil vapours into the PCV system?) Or is the primary oil separator located in a bad choice, drawing in oil droplet rich vapours?
- Is it a combination of all of the above?

I am trying to find an explanation so we know why the cars are drawing so much oil through the PCV system.

Either way, solving the deposits is a case of fitting a catch can. I will use the provent 200 - that looks the best available. Vent back to intake and the deposits should be reduced to virtually non-existant. It is widely accepted on Aus forums that a catch can is the solution to valve deposits and this should be easy to believe as the catch cans are indeed catching oil that would otherwise end up in the intake and just bake onto the intake manifold and valves.

Don't forget - other cars (with even bigger turbos like skylines etc) have ran fine with non-factory higher boost levels and manage to run without consuming vast amounts of oil.. so something in the engine design causing such significant oil loss. Not only would I like to fit a catch can to protect my engine from valve deposits, I would like to know (and possibly address) why the engine is sucking so much up from the crack in the first place.

Steven Oakes

 

[Bladecutter]

Why it happens to these turbo direct injection engines is simple:

High Boost Pressure + Rich Air to Fuel Ratio = Gasoline forced past the piston rings, oil control rings, into the oil pan.

High fuel dilution decreases the flash point of the oil, increasing the amount of oil volatility.

High oil volatility means that more oil/fuel mixture is being vaporized, and ingested by the PCV system. This leads to intake valve deposits.

So, you either need to remove the boost pressure from the engine (I can hear the crying from all the Turbo lovers now) to prevent the fuel dilution, or you need to find a way to separate the gasoline from the oil after it gets in there.

The only other choice is not allowing the oil vapor from the PCV system to get into the intake stream. That's the easiest of the three choices.

BC.

 

[d00df00d]

The model of RS4 in question is naturally aspirated.

 

[GordonC]

Originally Posted By: Steven_Oakes
Hi All,

I know this is an old thread.. but wanted to contribute. I am from Australia and own an Audi A4 2005.

This issue is definitely caused by oil ingestion through the intake manifold via the PCV system. It doesn't matter what oil you use. Ive owned numerous cars (all port injected though) and none of them consumed oil like my Audi does.

I see the problem as two-fold:
1) Oil buildup on intake valves.
2) Excessive oil consumption.

Whether you care about oil deposits on the valves or not is one thing, but separate to that the engines consume abnormally large amounts of oil. I use half a litre every 5,000 klms, no car I have ever owned used anywhere near that,


Hi Steven,
A couple of comments in response to your post:
- the thread is about oil concerns with the direct injected , normally aspirated V8. It's quite a different beast to your port injected turbo 4, and the "fixes" and recommendations will not necessarily be the same.

- Your excessive oil consumption is, to be blunt, NOT excessive. Half a litre every 5K km? Nothing. It genuinely is a normal amount of consumption for a gasoline engine, and maybe you haven't owned that many vehicles, or any vehicles from 20 - 30 years ago or older, but if you've never experienced that before then you don't have much experience. That may come across as rude, it's not meant to be, but I'm genuinely saying to you that 1 litre every 10K km is nowhere near excessive.

- "This issue is definitely caused by oil ingestion through the intake manifold via the PCV system. It doesn't matter what oil you use." - sorry, but it absolutely matters what oil you use. The volatility differences in oils is a very significant factor in the amount of oil vapours that will pass through the PCV system.

- "Whether you care about oil deposits on the valves or not is one thing, but separate to that" Well, the oil deposits on the valves is actually the whole point of this thread - it's a direct injection issue, and is by no means unique to VW and Audi.

 

[ikolbyi]

Originally Posted By: GordonC
Originally Posted By: Steven_Oakes
Hi All,

I know this is an old thread.. but wanted to contribute. I am from Australia and own an Audi A4 2005.

This issue is definitely caused by oil ingestion through the intake manifold via the PCV system. It doesn't matter what oil you use. Ive owned numerous cars (all port injected though) and none of them consumed oil like my Audi does.

I see the problem as two-fold:
1) Oil buildup on intake valves.
2) Excessive oil consumption.

Whether you care about oil deposits on the valves or not is one thing, but separate to that the engines consume abnormally large amounts of oil. I use half a litre every 5,000 klms, no car I have ever owned used anywhere near that,


Hi Steven,
A couple of comments in response to your post:
- the thread is about oil concerns with the direct injected , normally aspirated V8. It's quite a different beast to your port injected turbo 4, and the "fixes" and recommendations will not necessarily be the same.

- Your excessive oil consumption is, to be blunt, NOT excessive. Half a litre every 5K km? Nothing. It genuinely is a normal amount of consumption for a gasoline engine, and maybe you haven't owned that many vehicles, or any vehicles from 20 - 30 years ago or older, but if you've never experienced that before then you don't have much experience. That may come across as rude, it's not meant to be, but I'm genuinely saying to you that 1 litre every 10K km is nowhere near excessive.

- "This issue is definitely caused by oil ingestion through the intake manifold via the PCV system. It doesn't matter what oil you use." - sorry, but it absolutely matters what oil you use. The volatility differences in oils is a very significant factor in the amount of oil vapours that will pass through the PCV system.

- "Whether you care about oil deposits on the valves or not is one thing, but separate to that" Well, the oil deposits on the valves is actually the whole point of this thread - it's a direct injection issue, and is by no means unique to VW and Audi.


I agree with GordonC comment that the oil does matter, please see my post on this issue looking for feedback on a oil selection: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2236559#Post2236559

 

[Steven_Oakes]

GordonC,

Thanks for the reply.

I dont agree with you however.

Firstly, I understand this is a RS4 topic, but the problem is not unique to RS4 engines. There are numerous examples on the web of RS4s, A4s, TTs with oil deposits covering the intake valves.

What I am suggesting to you is yes, this is a problem related to FSI engines, but the problem is excacebated by the fact that the oil consumption is so high..

This is not a turbocharged related issue for obvious reasons: There are non-turbo Audi engines with this problem (A4 2.0 FSI, R8 with oil deposits and high consumption) and there have been previous to the Audi DI engine other turbo cars that do not have these problems, with higher boost levels (Such as the High power [censored] cars I have owned.. these were not DI though, so obviously will not have deposits but there was NO MEASURABLE OIL CONSUMPTION).

Of course, I have driven cars that use oil. But in these cars there were understandable explanations, in particular high engine milage. I drove a '85 commodore into the 00's and the oil consumption was quite high, so I just used Kmart oil as the engine was to the end of its life. I also drove a 1989 Suzuki from London to Mongolia, and that also used oil because it had 390,000 ks on the clock. In that one, I was using 0.5L every 1,000 or so, understandably!

However, I would understand this on a high mileage engine, but not a new car, especially one with very high machining tolerances. There is enough evidence on the web to suggest that there is a problem right from the start of these engines' lives.. indeed my car is relatively "new" with 70,000 ks. You can agree or disagree with my opinion my engine is "new".

Whether or not you consider my engine as new, the point still stands that this problem doesn't appear over the life of the engine, so this is not wear related.

I dont believe that you can say this is "normal" consumption at all, this is my belief and we will have to agree to disagree on this point.

With the 2.0 TFSI you have the option in the service schedule of a "long life" service.. with a oil change every 30,000 klms. So if you are right, and the engine normally uses 1L/5K klms, then in the space of 30,000 klms the engine has consumed 6 litres of oil.. or in other words, a whole engine full of oil between oil changes.

What would the point of a long life service be, avoiding the need to change the oil, if the engine uses a whole engine load of oil in between the oil change?? This point alone is enough reason to believe there is a design issue.

I've read in places Audi consider 1L/1000 klms "normal", and if this was the case you would use 10L of oil in between the oil change - and this would only be for the standard service interval of 15,000 klms!!! Absolutely crazy.

I have owned a lot of cars, but when I do my comparisons, I do it to the car most similar, ie: a modern turbocharged car (Albeit, non direct injection). I dont have a reason to believe the injection system alone explains the reason there is such a significant increase in oil consumption.

I am suggesting to you that these engines are consuming such a significantly increased amount of oil, that this cannot be compared to a 'normal' scenario where an engine uses maybe 0.5L every 15,000 (being generous there, in reality I have done oil changes where I could barely read on the oil dipstick that any oil had been lost!

I have studied the PCV system in my engine (2.0 TFSI) and have noticed something unusual with the design of the PCV system.. so I am going to be doing more testing but I think it is related! I dont have an RS4 to study, but am more than happy to share my findings.