Here go the oil Speculator's again!

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Originally Posted By: ZZman
Wish they had the rules in place......
frown.gif


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-dicker/oil-speculation-continues_b_844663.html


Instead of getting your information from the Puffington Host, how about the International Energy Agency?

Go here>>> http://omrpublic.iea.org/pricessearch.asp

Select "4. Physical Product Prices by Refining Center"

Go down the list of all five locations: Japan, Mediterranean, New York Harbor, Northwest Europe, and Singapore.

Compare the price charts for heating oil (NY) and gasoil (same product, different name, in the other four locations).

As you can see, the prices for distillate fuels are very nearly identical everywhere in the world. Europe is slightly higher now, but that is to be expected. The situation in Japan is a special case right now, but of course that is also to be expected.

The charts are for March 15th and have not been updated, but again they should illustrate what I have been telling you for many weeks now: there is no conspiracy to raise the fuel prices that Americans pay.
 
Originally Posted By: LTVibe
Yeah. Rules for the Feds...

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/137133/20110421/obama-gas-oil-attorney-general-federal-reserve.htm


Good article.

President Obama just announced that his Attorney General will form a task force to probe fraud in the energy market. What the Attorney General should do instead is investigate the Federal Reserve.

Currently, the US benchmark interest rate is zero and the 5-year Treasury yield is 2.11 percent. Meanwhile inflation is at 2.7 percent. The real interest rate, therefore, is negative. In other words, the US financial system fails to store the value of money.

If investors put them risk-free Treasuries, they will lose purchasing power. If they lend money out in the real economy, they will get a bad risk-adjusted return because all loans are simply the US benchmark interest rate plus a markup to reflect credit risk. The only sensible thing for investors to do, then, is to invest in equities and commodities.

Equities is an inflation hedge because successful businesses keep up with the rate of inflation. Commodities, on the other hand, are finite physical assets that will store value and keep up with inflation.

Because of the negative real interest rate in the past few years, investors have scooped up commodities crossed the board; crude oil/gasoline is hardly the only one to rally. Silver, for example, has already surged 50 percent in 2011. By investing in these commodities, investors were able to earn a decent real return on their capital.

The problem of soaring gas prices, therefore, lies squarely on the Federal Reserve because it made commodities one of the few investments that can store the value of money.

To lower gasoline prices, all the Federal Reserve has to do is raise the US benchmark interest rate and make it practical for investors to earn a decent real return on their capital through fixed-income (i.e. loans).

Moreover, doing so will make the US dollar appreciate, thereby driving down the cost of imported oil.



I would only add that this is a global phenomenon. Gold, silver, oil, corn, wheat, copper, cotton, cocoa, sugar, etc., are the same price no matter where you go in the world. This is not something that can be blamed on Wall Street or a few hedge funds.
 
Trvlr500, thank you for improving on what I said about the Federal Reserve. We are being loaded up with the debt. So the gains of this crazy credit system (in the words of Steven Keen, the Roving Cavaliers of Credit) go to the few while it works. When it blows up, the losses are passed on the the whole population (gains privatized, risks socialized). So this is not capitalism or socialism. This is fascism (state capitalism).

However, I do agree with fsskier in that we are running out of easy to extract oil, which means that inexpensive oil is gone.
 
LTVibe, I would add to looking at the Federal Reserve to look at Congress. Congress is fueling the inflation by massive deficit spending. Congress is responsible for our monetary system. They love inflation because it is a stealth tax. With sound money, they would have to raise tax rates to raise more nominal money.

The Federal Reserve and the Treasury, which some have called the "Treserve" are always about inflation. When the inflation is happening in housing, most people are happy. When the inflation is fueling food and energy, most people are not happy.

Tornado Red - President Obama aiming his blame at the speculators is an attempt to deflect blame from himself, the Federal Gov't, and the Federal Reserve. Pure populism. I am watching to see how intelligent the public is on this and if they swallow the propaganda blaming the speculators. I am not too optimistic.
 
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red




Equities is an inflation hedge because successful businesses keep up with the rate of inflation. Commodities, on the other hand, are finite physical assets that will store value and keep up with inflation.

The problem of soaring gas prices, therefore, lies squarely on the Federal Reserve because it made commodities one of the few investments that can store the value of money.



Thanks TR. You just admitted what I have said all along. This is not a supply and demand thing. It is a speculator thing.
 
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red

The problem of soaring gas prices, therefore, lies squarely on the Federal Reserve because it made commodities one of the few investments that can store the value of money.


Thanks TR. You just admitted what I have said all along. This is not a supply and demand thing. It is a speculator thing.

I'll agree with you if you'll agree with me -- that there are more than six billion of us who speculate about the future. Because it is something we humans can do, and it is something we cannot avoid doing. Some people immediately spend any money they get on something to eat; but quite a lot of the rest of us try to do something useful with the money before we spend it.

And then, when we spend it, we try to get the most for our money and we tend to buy more of those things which we anticipate will cost more in the future.

For instance, if you are accustomed to adding $10 worth of fuel to your tank every 3-4 days, if you suspect that the prices will be higher tomorrow, you might just go ahead and fill it all the way to the brim. If you need to buy sugar, instead of five pounds you might buy ten or twenty, if you think it's going to be more expensive in a month. You might invest in a few extra pairs of Levis, if you see that cotton prices are going higher.

And if you usually stick $100 or $200 or $500 in a savings account each month, but you're tired of earning 0.4% annual interest when consumer prices are climbing 3% or 5% or 12% -- then you will not save that money, you will join the evil speculators and find something useful to do with your money so it does not lose value so rapidly.

The solution was posted here just a day or two: raise the interest rate. Want to end the speculation, strengthen the dollar, and bring down the price of crude oil and petroleum fuels? Raise the interest rates. The longer it takes before the Fed does this, the more inflation gets entrenched in the system, then the higher the rates must go and the longer they must stay high. We saw this in the 1970s and it's exactly the same today.
 
O.K

I will also agree with you that it is in a sense a supply and demand issue.

Since there is not a large enough supply of good paying investments out there they are turning to other investments to make money. Hence the higher demand for commodities.

I don't agree with it but I see the rational.
 
We the people are mostly to blame . Never learned from the Katrina / Rita crisis . All starts with the indivisual on how they drive and what they drive ( including economy cars ) . Example , while sitting at red light in the YARIS a S.U.V. passed it so fast in the turning lane to beat the red light that the car rocked from the air that it disrupted . Whooooosh ! We also see many drivers leaving their vehicles idling in parking lots while eating , talking on the cell phone , etc.. We watched someone leave their minivan running for well over 20 minutes in a parking lot of a fast food restauant . Maybe they should try eating with it off or go inside to feed their faces . Then these are the ones that complain about gas prices . Want to say thanks for those contributing to higher prices . No speculation here , all facts .
 
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Originally Posted By: odie
We the people are mostly to blame . Never learned from the Katrina / Rita crisis.

Never learned from the '73 oil embargo either.

"The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history." ~ Friedrich Hegel
 
http://blogs.forbes.com/warrenmeyer/2011...her-oil-prices/

Are Speculators Responsible for Today’s Higher Oil Prices?

Apr. 21 2011 - 12:06 pm
This week, Barack Obama joined much of the progressive Left in blaming recent increases in oil prices on nebulous and nefarious “speculators.” It’s a charge that has been leveled, and investigated, numerous times since the early 1970’s. And its a charge that is as empty of truth as it has been frequent.

There’s very little that’s new in politics. In 301AD, the Roman Emporer Diocletian issued the edict of maximum prices, which set prices on a bewilderingly large array of goods. It was backed up by the death penalty on speculators, who were decried by Diocletian as a scourge worse than the barbarian hordes. As could be expected by our modern understanding of economics, the edicts mainly resulted in painful shortages of critical commodities. In fact, the original price increases that led to the edict were caused not by speculators, but by profligate government spending and a debasement of the currency (any of that sound familiar?)

In fact, it is almost impossible to find examples of private action sustaining an artificially high price floor. Only with the cooperation of an interventionist government are such sustained price floors possible — that’s why at one point or another in history we have had minimum prices set by the government for taxis, airline fares, rail freight rates, farm products and government-enforced limits on supply that have driven up prices of everything from attorneys to real estate agents to funeral homes to interior design.
(snip)
So lets consider speculation in this context. We start from a market in oil for current delivery that is in balance, where the price is such that supply and demand are roughly equal. Now, enter speculators. They supposedly drive the price up above this “natural” price. As the price rises, we know producers will seek ways to bring more oil to market, and consumers will reduce their consumption. The result is a glut – an excess of supply over demand. Here is the real question to ask if one suspects that speculators are driving the price of oil for current delivery above and beyond the market clearing price: Where is all the extra oil going?

Let’s consider the example of when the Hunt’s tried to corner the silver market in the late 1970s. Over six months, they managed to drive the price from $11 to almost $50 an ounce. Leverage in futures markets allowed them to control a huge chunk of the available world supply. But just driving the price up temporarily did not get them anywhere — to make the fortune they wanted, the prices had to go up and stay up. As prices rose, no one but the Hunt’s were buying, while new supplies flowed onto the market. The only way the Hunt’s could keep the price up was to pour hundreds of millions of dollars in to buy up this excess supply. Eventually, of course, they went bankrupt. They only could maintain the artificially higher commodity price as long as they kept buying and storing excess capacity, a leveraged Ponzi game that eventually collapsed.

So how do oil traders’ supposedly pull off this feat of keeping oil prices elevated above the market clearing price? Well, there is only one way: Excess supply created by the artificially high price has to be stored, either in tanks or in the ground.

... To keep prices elevated, someone would have to be buying this amount of oil every day, and keep on buying and storing this amount indefinitely.

Certainly this would bankrupt anyone in the attempt — it would cost something like $80 billion (just for the oil) to maintain this game for six months and require storage larger than the entire US strategic petroleum reserve. So it should not be surprising that we see no such trends in inventories. Crude oil and gasoline inventories are among the most carefully watched economic statistics there are. Crude oil inventories always rise this time of year (in anticipation of summer gasoline demand) and the rise in inventory this year has been well within historic norms. Gasoline inventories have actually been falling, indicating that the price of gas is perhaps a bit too low.

The only real option for raising prices is to store the oil in the ground — in other words, don’t allow it to get produced in the first place.

How do speculators pull this off? I have no idea. Despite people’s image, the oil producer’s market is incredibly fragmented. The biggest companies in the world have less than 5% share of world production, and it rapidly steps down from there. It is actually even more fragmented than that, because most oil production is co-owned by royalty holders who get a percentage of the production. Producers and royalty holders are a very fragmented and independent group, and have every incentive to produce fast and hard when prices are high.

Is there a crime in the current oil prices? Yes, but it’s not one of speculation. Prices are a form of communication. Higher prices tell consumers to use less oil, and producers to go find more. The real crime today is that while the signal is flashing today to oil companies to go find more crude, the Obama administration has bent over backwards to make such efforts all but impossible. In fact, the Obama Administration desperately tried and failed to increase oil and gas prices via cap and trade last year. President Obama is not really against higher oil prices, he just wants them driven higher by the state, not by the markets. (end of quote)

I have to ask this question: who is benefitting when the Obama Administration restricts oil exploration and drilling in the US? Who benefits when the Obama Administration intervenes in Libya -- not to change the regime, because the State Department has on a number of occasions says that's not our objective, and if it was then we could have done it in a matter of days with the proper application of military force?

If one believed in conspiracy theories, one might suggest that Mr Obama is trying to keep more oil in the ground, to drive up the price of crude. So who would benefit? Might it not be some of the hedge fund managers who helped Mr Obama get elected in 2008, and who are prepared to spend up to $1 billion to get him reelected in 2012?

Speculation only works if the fundamentals justify higher prices. Mr Obama is doing his part to keep oil in the ground -- George Soros and his pals may be doing very well, but Obama never mentions Soros by name as that would be attacking his own political ally.
 
Interesting, it could be true. How about anyone trading oil futures holds the contracts 90 days or pays a penalty for an early sale? That would take the speculators out of the game if they are in it. Truth is the "free market" won't allow it, because the insiders would take a hit. Yet if you buy mutual funds you have to hold many of them or take a hit as mentioned above for early sales. That keeps the day traders out of day trading mutual funds, it works very well too. BTW I'm not looking for a fight here, just tossing out ideas.
 
Originally Posted By: LTVibe
Originally Posted By: odie
We the people are mostly to blame . Never learned from the Katrina / Rita crisis.

Never learned from the '73 oil embargo either.

"The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history." ~ Friedrich Hegel




All of our government leaders since '73 have failed us by doing nothing to address our energy problems, which began with the '73 embargo. If a long term energy plan had been developed in '73, we may very well be energy independent right now, and we'd probably have plenty of affordable alternative energy souces. But instead, here we sit, at the mercy of oil producing countries that hate our guts and could very easily put our country into economic ruins by continuing to jack up oil prices. Of course Obama, Soros and their ilk would love that as putting our economy into default would make it much easier for them restart our economy using their progressive system. Do you actually think Obama and the dems are too stupid to see where all this overspending and massive national debt is leading the country? They are TRYING to destroy the country so they can rebuild our economic system their way. Even though it was the capitalistic system that made them all rich, now that they have their money, they hate capitalism.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Interesting, it could be true. How about anyone trading oil futures holds the contracts 90 days or pays a penalty for an early sale? That would take the speculators out of the game if they are in it. Truth is the "free market" won't allow it, because the insiders would take a hit. Yet if you buy mutual funds you have to hold many of them or take a hit as mentioned above for early sales. That keeps the day traders out of day trading mutual funds, it works very well too. BTW I'm not looking for a fight here, just tossing out ideas.


Mutual funds do not want people buying and selling, because they make money by using your money and by charging a flat fee for managing yoour funds. Your suggestion is like requiring buyers of shares to hold them; would you buy corporate shares if you could not sell them when you want to?

Commodity brokers make money from commissions, so the more you trade then the more they earn. I believe they also collect fees for handling the delivery of the physical product, for instance making sure of the quality and quantity of the product.

Demar, you are making a mistake which is common but I don't understand why. You suggest that the US government can establish rules and the rest of the world would just follow suit.

Most futures trading takes place on US exchanges because of liquidity -- because most futures trading takes place on US exchanges! (circular logic, I know) But alternatives exist and it would only take a few weeks to destroy the domestic markets, and once gone that trading would never come back. The US would probably be left with trading in corn and wheat futures, and a couple other agricultural commodities -- but the volume of activity would shrivel, the liquidity would disappear, the spreads between buy and ask prices would widen, the farmers would get lower prices while the processors have to pay more, etc.

The government can tell the exchanges to increase the margins for volatile commodities. But it cannot tell the exchanges to take actions which will end the reason for the exchanges to exist. Forcing the traders to take delivery turns a futures exchange into a clearinghouse for forward contracts - but forward contracts that can't be transferred.

I know that the practice of buying and selling of forward contracts has been commonplace since at least the mid- to late-1600s, but probably much earlier than that. At that time, if London established rules that limited trading, then the trading just shifted to Amsterdam. Today, if trading cannot be conducted in New York and Chicago, it will shift to London or Dubai or Singapore or Shanghai.
 
Interesting article TR but i have some issues with it of course.

I am not saying a set price max price should be set. However if you took some "players" out of the game with regulations the price might very well be more "reasonable" or not as volatile.

Second of all the whole game to to buy low and sell high. So there are almost always someone making money and losing money depending on when you decide to buy or sell. Most people buying oil now are hoping to sell shortly and make money. They may or may not.

The other issue is the producers can make a glut as easy as they can make a shortage if they so chose. Maybe this is not so "natural".

The silver example could be true for the Hunt's but if anyone else had seen the rise in price and panicked or gotten greedy they might have jumped in as well and then if the Hunt's bailed at the top they could have made a tidy profit. Maybe not what they hoped for but a profit none the less.
 
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Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
demarpaint said:
Interesting, it could be true. How about anyone trading oil futures holds the contracts 90 days or pays a penalty for an early sale? That would take the speculators out of the game if they are in it. Truth is the "free market" won't allow it, because the insiders would take a hit. Yet if you buy mutual funds you have to hold many of them or take a hit as mentioned above for early sales. That keeps the day traders out of day trading mutual funds, it works very well too. BTW I'm not looking for a fight here, just tossing out ideas.



Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Your suggestion is like requiring buyers of shares to hold them; would you buy corporate shares if you could not sell them when you want to?
If I had faith in the company I was investing yes, I'd hold shares for a required time, [30-90 days is fair isn't it?] just like I do with the mutual funds I invest in.


Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
I know that the practice of buying and selling of forward contracts has been commonplace since at least the mid- to late-1600s, but probably much earlier than that. At that time, if London established rules that limited trading, then the trading just shifted to Amsterdam. Today, if trading cannot be conducted in New York and Chicago, it will shift to London or Dubai or Singapore or Shanghai.


In the 1600's they didn't have computers making it easy for people to swing trade, but they did have corruption. I'm offering an opinion, right or wrong I'd be willing to bet day traders would stay clear of oil futures if they had to hold for a certain amount of time. 90 days too harsh, try 30 days, how about 10 days? Too much risk, trust me they'd be out of the game and I'd be paying prices for oil and gas set by supply and demand, not swing traders. Remember the big players don't want this to happen so it won't. One more thing, I never said swing traders/speculators were totally responsible for these high prices, only part of it. My suggestion would tell just how much of a part they have in it.
 
From this morning's news:

Crude Oil Climbs a Fourth Day as Middle East Violence Escalates

Quote:
April 25 (Bloomberg) -- Crude oil gained for a fourth day in New York, the longest rising streak since December, as escalating violence in the Middle East and Africa threatened to prolong supply disruptions.

Speculators would not have the power to jack up the price of crude if world events stopped giving them reasons to do so. Perhaps it's time to look for another scapegoat.
 
Originally Posted By: LTVibe

Perhaps it's time to look for another scapegoat.


Obama, Geitner, and Bernanke don't really care who you blame, as long as it's someone else.

I still think it's telling that when Mr Obama criticizes speculators, he never mentions the speculators who pay for his election victories: the partners at Goldman Sachs and the hedge fund managers like George Soros.
 
Quote:
If a long term energy plan had been developed in '73, we may very well be energy independent right now, and we'd probably have plenty of affordable alternative energy souces.

Based on what? And just who are these people in the 1970's that would have clairvoyance into the future of energy?

The last thing I want is Congress making an energy policy.
 
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