What constitutes good fuel?

[markum]

What is good fuel. I've always used Chevron or Shell, maybe even 76 every now and then. I look for fuel that is "top tier". I'm aware that in my area 95%+ of the stations use 10% ethanol. The stations that are ethanol free are unbranded CFN or Grange sights. I don't believe these would be considered top tier, right?

Should I continue using Chevron, Shell, etc. or do I go for an unbranded station that uses ethanol free fuel?

 

[Hokiefyd]

By definition, Top Tier gasoline contains between 8 and 10% ethanol. So if you're specifically looking for ethanol-free gasoline, it can't be from a Top Tier retailer.

I've begun to buy only Exxon gas. It's the only Top Tier gas in my area (mostly BP), and both vehicle seem to run the best on it.

 

[SrDriver]

I try and avoid Ethanol added fuel if possible.

I also run between 3 to 4 oz of MMO per 10 gallons of fuel too. I wonder if Top Tier gas is just a marketing ploy?

The way prices of fuel are now and headed, I have started looking @ price too as a consideration.

 

[Quest]

First off, we've been running ethanol-blended fuel (up to 10%) for over 1.5 decades, and frankly speaking I don't care about adding UCL or so.

I've torn and rebuilt 4 different gasoline engines that's been on the local diet and never seen any issues with ethanol-blended fuel at all (top cylinder bore wear?!) I've also torn enough fuel injectors and intake manifold runs to tell you that in terms of keeping fuel injectors clean and free from gumming/carboning up, PEA based fuel works wonders.

We in beaverland don't care much about conspiracy of fuel blend (we worry about politics more), fuel economy and more.

Q.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: markum
What is good fuel?

Good fuel:

1. has the correct octane rating for your car;
2. comes from a station that has high maintenance standards and gets frequent refills; and
3. has a high level of cleaning additives (this is covered by the Top Tier Gas program, but it's possible for non-Top Tier retailers as well).


Originally Posted By: markum
Should I continue using Chevron, Shell, etc. or do I go for an unbranded station that uses ethanol free fuel?

As much as I hate ethanol, those three points above are much more important as far as I can tell.

 

[rslifkin]

I'm with d00df00d on that one. I go for stations with a good bit of turnover (mostly those in nicer areas, as premium gets more turnover there), and will change stations if I get any pinging (the Jeep is very octane sensitive, and doesn't have a knock sensor).

 

[Rickey]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
By definition, Top Tier gasoline contains between 8 and 10% ethanol. So if you're specifically looking for ethanol-free gasoline, it can't be from a Top Tier retailer.

I've begun to buy only Exxon gas. It's the only Top Tier gas in my area (mostly BP), and both vehicle seem to run the best on it.

-----------------------------------------------------
That's not the way I understand the top tier formulation.
The way I read it is that the test fuel for certification testing of the top tier additive shall be additized with 8-10 percent ethanol.

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

In other words the top tier additive shall be capable of tolerating the addition of ethanol.

Rickey.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I am at higher elevation and run 86 octane in my two personal vehicles.. WE usually fill up at Sams or the local rewards program at the grocery stores(Safeway and smiths)
No issues whatesoever. I think the busier the station and the more frequent the tanks are refilled the better. THe problem in my area with premium stations(Shell and Chevron here) is that they may lack enough traffic to keep the tanks fresh and the blends from stratifying.

 

[sangyup81]

It's easier to tell you what bad fuel is.

Gas stations with bad fuel tanks can sometimes let water in and that is definitely bad

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Rickey
That's not the way I understand the top tier formulation.
The way I read it is that the test fuel for certification testing of the top tier additive shall be additized with 8-10 percent ethanol.

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

In other words the top tier additive shall be capable of tolerating the addition of ethanol.

Rickey.


From the standard:

Quote:
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.


That tells me that, after the addition of ethanol, the fuel has enough denatured ethanol that the actual content is no less than 8% and no greater than 10%. It doesn't mention additives; it mentions the "base fuel". I could certainly be mis-reading it, but it seems clear to me.

 

[Mr Nice]

It must have the correct octane and have very little contaminants.

 

[Rickey]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Rickey
That's not the way I understand the top tier formulation.
The way I read it is that the test fuel for certification testing of the top tier additive shall be additized with 8-10 percent ethanol.

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

In other words the top tier additive shall be capable of tolerating the addition of ethanol.

Rickey.


From the standard:

Quote:
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.


That tells me that, after the addition of ethanol, the fuel has enough denatured ethanol that the actual content is no less than 8% and no greater than 10%. It doesn't mention additives; it mentions the "base fuel". I could certainly be mis-reading it, but it seems clear to me.



The way that I read it the top tier additive needs to be capable of working with ethanol, but does not require ethanol to work.
The following sentence explains that the certification tests shall use a fuel as specified......

"1.3 Deposit Control Initial Performance Standards. Initial deposit control performance shall be demonstrated using the tests shown below." etc.

Rickey.

 

[Rickey]

"What constitutes good fuel?"

Fresh fuel with enough detergency to promote cleanliness of the fuel system,intake valves, etc.
Fuel with enough octane to prevent excessive spark knock or knock retard.
If fuel contains ethanol the water content should be nil.

In my area of the country almost all gasoline is from the same pipeline and in essence it is the same fuel irregardless of brand.(fungible)
Premium and regular are different shipments on the same pipeline.
Mid-grade is blended after delivery to market area.

The branding takes place when the gasoline is dispensed into the tanker and the brand name additive package (techron, V power, etc) is added (if any).
The fuel as it arrives on the pipeline must meet minimum federal standards for detergency etc.
The allegedly better brands are better only because of their individual additive package(s).
It is possible to market an independent brand gasoline that contains only the minimum additives allowed by the governing authorities.
IE straight from the pipeline to distribution.

Also volume at an individual station must be taken into account:
Obviously a station that has frequent tanker visits will have fresher fuel. This is especially important given gasohol's tendency to absorb water.

Rickey

 

[Y_K]

We had ethanol-free top tier stations around here before the ethanol became mandatory. I did not see blown engines from the ethanol, but I see its effect on my wallet as I fill my towncar every day, and twice a day on a busy stretch. Definitely brings mpg down.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Rickey
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Rickey
That's not the way I understand the top tier formulation.
The way I read it is that the test fuel for certification testing of the top tier additive shall be additized with 8-10 percent ethanol.

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

In other words the top tier additive shall be capable of tolerating the addition of ethanol.

Rickey.


From the standard:

Quote:
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.


That tells me that, after the addition of ethanol, the fuel has enough denatured ethanol that the actual content is no less than 8% and no greater than 10%. It doesn't mention additives; it mentions the "base fuel". I could certainly be mis-reading it, but it seems clear to me.



The way that I read it the top tier additive needs to be capable of working with ethanol, but does not require ethanol to work.
The following sentence explains that the certification tests shall use a fuel as specified......

"1.3 Deposit Control Initial Performance Standards. Initial deposit control performance shall be demonstrated using the tests shown below." etc.

Rickey.


There are a number of initial performance standards defined in the Top Tier specifications. Each performance standard specifies a Base Fuel to be used to meet that standard. The 8-10% ethanol by volume requirement is specified in the 1.3.1.2 section, and is apparently a requirement for the test to demonstrate conformance to the Intake Valve Keep Clean Initial Performance Standard. The section even says, "The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806."

The Combustion Chamber Deposit Initial Performance Standard also defines a Base Fuel, in section 1.3.2.2. Coincidentally, it requires the same Base Fuel as the previous Initial Performance Standard.

The Fuel Injector Fouling Initial Performance Standard's Base Fuel options are defined in section 1.3.3.2, and there are apparently two options. There is apparently no minimum or maximum ethanol by volume percentage requirement for this Initial Performance Standard, because it is not listed.

There is a fourth Initial Performance Standard at the bottom, and its Base Fuel appears to be the same as specified in section 1.3.1.2 above.

I don't see anything in the language that talks about additive compatibility. We may just simply agree to disagree on this.

 

[ahoier]

I tend to use stations that are easy access, and have a fresh supply of fuel. Generally, the busier the station, less likely to get "stale" or bad gas....etc.

And obviously, correct octane for my car.

But I'm a fan of the MMO, always add 5.25 oz (old Lucas UCL bottle) to my fill ups....

 

[glum]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
By definition, Top Tier gasoline contains between 8 and 10% ethanol. So if you're specifically looking for ethanol-free gasoline, it can't be from a Top Tier retailer.

I've begun to buy only Exxon gas. It's the only Top Tier gas in my area (mostly BP), and both vehicle seem to run the best on it.

That's good to know. I wish Exxon knew this as well, given the fact that I recently asked them about ETOH content at one of their stations!

 

[KeithKman]

Question, why can you get 93 back east, south, and on the east coast, but can only get 91 out here west?

 

[Rickey]

I do wish the Top Tier folks would make their specifications a little more understandable. I apologize for the long spec that follows.

Please notice that their deposit control TESTS require that "ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent" and "no less than 24 mg/kg sulfur" content.

Since both sulfur and ethanol are negatives for fuel cleanliness: I submit that what the top tier group are specifying is that their additives have the ability to work with lesser quality fuels.

They are not saying that high sulfur and ethanol content etc. are a requirement for top tier at the pump.

Rickey.



"Deposit Control Standards

The standards developed by the four automobile manufacturers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota) for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline are described below. This technical document describes the deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline at the retail level that minimizes deposits on fuel injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers. These standards comprise the requirements for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.

Standards

1.1 Retail Gasoline Performance Standards. The deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline conforming to section 1 of this document shall be met at the retail level in all grades of gasoline sold by a fuel company in all marketing areas of a selected nation. In addition, conformance to the standards shall mean gasoline sold in the selected nation shall not contain metallic additives, including methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT).

1.2 Deposit Control Additive Requirements. The deposit control additive used to meet the performance Standards described in 1.3 shall meet the substantially similar definition under Section 211(f) of the Clean Air Act. Also, the additive shall be certified to have met the minimum deposit control requirements established by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in 40 CFR Part 80. Lastly, the additive shall be registered with the EPA in accordance with 40 CFR Part 79.

1.3 Deposit Control Initial Performance Standards. Initial deposit control performance shall be demonstrated using the tests shown below.

1.3.1 Intake Valve Keep Clean Initial Performance Standard.

1.3.1.1 Test Method. Intake valve deposit (IVD) keep clean performance shall be demonstrated using ASTM D 6201, Standard Test Method for Dynamometer Evaluation of Unleaded Spark-lgnition Engine Fuel for Intake Valve Deposit Formation. Tests demonstrating base fuel minimum deposit level (1.3.1.2) and additive performance (1.3.1.3) shall be conducted using the same engine block and cylinder head. All results shall be derived from operationally valid tests in accordance with the test validation criteria of ASTM D 6201. IVD results shall be reported for individual valves and as an average of all valves.

1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

1. Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
2. Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
3. Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics as measured by ASTM D 1319 or D 5580.
4. Contain no less than 24 mg/kg sulfur as measured by ASTM D 2622 or D 5453. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
5. Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290F. as measured by ASTM D 86.
6. Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.

1.3.1.3 Demonstration of Performance. The base fuel from 1.3.1.2 shall contain enough deposit control additive such the IVD is no more than 50 mg averaged over all intake valves. Results for individual valves and an average shall be reported. The unwashed gum level of the fuel containing deposit control additive shall be determined according to ASTM D 381 and reported."

 

[JHZR2]

If you can get no ethanol fuel, Id go for that. All gasoline is EPA mandated to have a certain amount of additization for cleanliness, not to say that a bit more isnt better.

Since I live in NJ, we have the luxury of cheaper fuel that is pumped for you. I look silly doing additives with the attendant watching, but I do it all the same. In any other state (except OR), you have to pump it yourself, so youre messing around in the fueling area anyway. No big deal to add some aditive as a maintenance dose each time. IMO this is the best of all worlds, non-ethanol fuel with an additive of your choice. A few times a year Id get some top tier fuel, as it will give you some different adds and the ethanol should enable you to remove the water in your tank, keeping things in good shape...