mobil 1 15w-50, '02 civic si k20a3

[chunky]

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Originally posted by buster:

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The OEM recomendations are just that recomendations! I think that if the OEM recomends something other then 30wt then start with their recomendation and work from their. The simply truth is that no one oil prescription is going to work universaly across the board.

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John, your running a 15w-50 in a truck that calls for a 30wt oil. If you thought what you have stated, then why didnt' you start with a 30wt first and sampled it? What makes you think the 50wt is going to provide more protection? We've seen so many UOA's that don't suggest thicker is better in every case which is why using a heavier oil for every car all the time is not the answer. I'm also not saying thinner is better. What Im saying is not all engines require heavier oils.

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I think JohnBrowning is stating that in hotter climates, a thicker oil is beneficial b/c the oil film is more durable, that it doesn't shear as easily, so it's less reliant on additives for good wear qualities.

He's also stated that he's not strictly pro thick oil - he has advocated all along that you should use an oil suited to the ambient temperatures that your car will experience. I agree completely with that philosophy. I live in a hotter climate and I drive with a heavy right foot, so starting out with a 15-50 made sense for me, and it seems to have worked out so far.

But maybe to satisfy the fancy of this board, i'll do two things for my next UOA's: 1) run the mobil 1 to 5000 miles on the next oil change, 2) run mobil 1 5-30 for the same interval. As far as I can tell, the mobil 1 oils all have the same additive package, so the only thing that would change would be the oil thickness.

I'll document gas mileage of the course of using the 5-30 as well.

 

[JohnBrowning]

buster, My experince is in engine tear down. Between working as a tech. in Germany and in the Georgia I have seen the ravages of light weight conventional oils changed at the OEM OCI.

I am still learning in reguards to UOA. A bearing does not lie! The crank and rod bearings will always tell you the exact condition of the engine. THe ring pack also tells a convinceing story about service and lub combo.

To answere your question about the 30 wt oil. Who said I did not start with a 30wt. I did not say that. If it is an egine I already have experince with and have already tried all the oil weights for why not report what you know about them.

Prior to discovering this site I did not save UOA past vechile ownership. I also did not have any place to post the results. Now that I do watch out. I have a UOA of a 03 Tundra with 15W50 comeing soon. I want to make sure millage is at least 5000 to make it a worth while UOA.

I will also say that I can see the advantages of thinner oil. I realise that increased solvency, flow, cold pumping are all important. I just do not think that they are important enough in warm weather to give up any and I mean any film strength!!! THe solvency issue can be delt with with the addition of additives like Lube Control. Even M1 10W30 has solvency issues according to Terry. I trust Terry implictitly in reguards to an oils weakness!!

 

[sbc350gearhead]

All I am saying is that you should use the thinnest oil, that will protect your engine. I am not saying 15w50 is crap. I am saying that I would try a lighter viscosity and then compare them. Oil temps probably have more to do with proper viscosity than anything else, and I doubt you are running 300 degree oil temps. If it were me (and its not), I would do a UOA on a 40 weight. If they are identical to the 50, then I would try a 30.

Eventually you will find the proper oil for your application, and will have the evidence to back it up. If 50 weight proves the best, then you get the joy of saying "I told you so!".

 

[Last_Z]

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Originally posted by buster:

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Keep your reports coming Chunky .....I plan on running all 15W-50 on my Z28 soon.
At this moment, I'm running 1qt of 15W-50, 350ml of #132 and the rest of 10W-30....total sump capacity is 6qts.....I'm hoping for a very thick 30W to a low 40W with the above mix.
Those of you who have picked on Jonh B for advocating thicker oils....here is the proof of what he's been talking about; and this is a Civic!! Hope you apologize in the very near future.
JB....need no more explaining for me to use thick oils.....I'M SOLD!!!
Rick

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Last Z, thicker oils are not better. I don't know why people are so hung up on "thicker is better"? It's not logical. Do you think 15w-50 is good in all cars? No, very few. Its not always the viscosity but the quality and amount of components. An oil is as good as the sum of its parts. Mobil 1 0w-20 has shown, although most seem to have not been paying attention, to be a really good oil thus far. I ran a 40wt in my Toyota 1.8L and it was sluggish as **** . I don't think wear could have been any better the I had with 30wts. It's this old school mindset that keeps people thinkng thicker is better. Maybe way back when, yeah they were better, but not now. Oils are made better and a good synthetic will protect better then a dino oil one grade higher. [/QB]

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Buster;
You might want to read my post again.
I NEVER said X was better than Z....please don't change the contents of my posts.
I said this is "YET ANOTHER KNOCKOUT PUNCH FOR THICK OILS"
You speak as if you have numerous degrees on lubrication or something and you post like there is no tomorrow. Stop posting so much and obscuring the truth and start learning.
There are about 5-6 reports of different vehicle brands (Toyota, Porsche, Honda....and I forget the rest) with 50w oil and they are all OUTSTANDING; so what is your reasoning behind thick oils don't work on many cars?
Rick


EDIT: BTW, ther is no way this site is as Democratic as it seems....brand loyalties and biases are ramppant, hindering the true potential of a site like this. I have learned to "sort out" bad info, myths and biases.

[ September 20, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]

 

[buster]

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Those of you who have picked on Jonh B for advocating thicker oils....here is the proof of what he's been talking about; and this is a Civic!! Hope you apologize in the very near future.
JB....need no more explaining for me to use thick oils.....I'M SOLD!!!

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Last Z, I'll post as much as I feel like it. This site is not democratic when others tell people how much they should post and that thicker oils are better. You sound like a dictator.

No one has picked on John B, so get it straight. For last friggin time, what I am saying is that using thicker oils is not the answer for ALL vehicles. Like Terry and Molekule have stated, starting with a 30wt and going from there is the way to go. I'm not going run a 15w-50 in any 4cyl bc I know it doesn't need it! I've gotten good results using lighter viscosity oils. Mobil 1's first oil was a 20wt., did you know that? BTW, I don't claim to know anymore then anyone else on here and I don't have any degrees in oil, nor do I want to. But when you look at the big picture and read ALL of the UOA's there are good and bad with multiple viscosities. I'm also not big on the fact that M1 5w-30 is on the thin side of the 30wt scale. I prefer Amsoil's thicker 30wts for most cars but UOA's have shown there isnt a drastic difference.

[ September 20, 2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Jay]

quote:

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Originally posted by chunky:

But maybe to satisfy the fancy of this board, i'll do two things for my next UOA's: 1) run the mobil 1 to 5000 miles on the next oil change, 2) run mobil 1 5-30 for the same interval. As far as I can tell, the mobil 1 oils all have the same additive package, so the only thing that would change would be the oil thickness.

I'll document gas mileage of the course of using the 5-30 as well.

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Excellent chunky! What we have in this thread is a good report. We don't have a comparison. I believe you will see the following things with the M1 5w-30:

1. Significantly better gas mileage.
2. Lower oil temperatures.
3. More power.
4. Lower wear.

Here's the comparison between your wear numbers and mine (now that your server works).

code:

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chunky Jay

Fe 1.3ppm/1kmi 1.0ppm/1kmi

Cr 0 0

Pb 0 0

Cu 1.0 .5

Sn 0 .1

Al .3 .8

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This isn't a valid comparison because too many variables are changing between drivers and conditions, but it does show that you can get excellent wear numbers with lighter oils.

 

[Last_Z]

Buster;
Who are you calling a dictator...do you even know what that word means?
You are just pizzed at the fact that this is an excellent report and you of course, being the person you are and always trying to be different, have to discourage the guy by saying he shouldn't run 15W-50....sounds to me like YOU are in fact dictating!
Also, I don't remember anyone here telling you what to run in your car....I personaly could care less.
Stop posting so d4mn much dude....you are taking away the merits of this very good oil report. I have a very hard time believing that any other oil will show a significant improvement in wear....take a look at the report again, the engine barely shed a few ppm of metals....they might even be from before this UOA.
Get over yourself already.....in fact, I'm done with you dude.
Rick

 

[Cerbera LM]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
Most people on here will agree that an oil filter can safely be run for 10,000 miles and even then it won't be full (unless you ran without an air filter and your oil was full of dirt)

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The Si manual recommendation:
5k oil changes for "severe" conditions, 10k for "normal" conditions and replace the oil filter every other oil change.

 

[Last_Z]

Jay;
Are you forgetting that Chunky aut-x his car accasionally? That's the main reason he runs the 50w.
Also, his Lead is "0".....perfect bearing protection....what more are you guys asking for? I just don't understand you people?

Rick

[ September 20, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]

 

[Last_Z]

Car belongs to a fellow bimmer owner and is driven hard, this oil has seen 240 autocross runs and countless miles of spirited driving.

code:

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Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60



2001 BMW M Roadster , 3.2-liter I-6 (S54) 315HP



Miles on the car: 27,425



Miles on oil: 4,586; from May 7 – September 15, 2003

No oil added.



Lab: Blackstone Labs



Aluminum 5

Chromium 0

Iron 12

Copper 5

Lead 1

Tin 1

Molybdenum 2

Manganese 0

Potassium 0

Boron 85

Silicon 6

Sodium 10

Calcium 1471

Magnesium 564

Phosphorus 761

Zinc 846

Barium o



SUS viscosity@210F 90.3

Flashpoint 395

Fuel%
Insolubles% 0.3

No TBN

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YET ANOTHER KNOCKOUT WIN FOR THE HEAVY WEIGHTS!!!!!!!
Check out the lead on this baby.....it is run hard and the results are excellent!....and this is 60W oil.

[ April 26, 2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[buster]

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do you even know what that word means?

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Last Z, you just don't understand, but thats ok. I'll let it go and agree to disagree. I'm ok with thicker oils in certain engines as I've said in the past. You obviously have some obsession with thick viscosity. I NEVER SAID I"M NOT FOR USING THICKER VISCOSITIES. I am for using what viscosity works best in a particular engine.

[ September 20, 2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Last_Z]

Once again changing the contents of my posts.
Tell me, where do you see my bias towards thicker oil....where do you see the obsession?
It really boils my blood to see people put down a product or grade of product, even though they have in front of them proof that such product/product grade performs flawlessly.....and that is my problem with you. I would agree that for the winter time, a thinner oil "should" and I repeat, "should" perform better than the thicker oil, BUT, for the above example, why suggest something else when he proved that his engine is doing perfectly fine with the 50W? He even went on to say that he dynoed his car and DIDN'T lose ANY power and fuel mileage is the SAME. So, why discourage him from using 15W-50?
I think the qustion here should have been: Could the 5W-30 take the same abuse and been in the same shape as this 15W-50?
I said it before and I say it again....this site has a tendency of making people worry way too much about the smallest of details, and probably 99% of the time, worry about stuff that is perfectly normal.
Rick

PS; I know I said I wouldn't answer to you Buster anymore, but I ain't got nothing to do at the moment....so why not?!

 

[Dr. T]

Understood, but what's not right is saying a 30 weight is adequate and then adding 1 qt/ 1k mi....this is B.S....just like the 3MP study. That study clearly indicates that the M1 5-30 is too thin of a viscosity in that particular engine resulting in excessive consumption for the alloted mileage inerval(s)....and that will be more detrimental than the fact that the TBN held up....

 

[buster]

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SAME. So, why discourage him from using 15W-50?

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Last time Last Z, I"m not discouraging him from using this oil. What I am saying is he might be able to use a lighter oil and achieve the same wear but increase his HP and increase his MPG. That is worth it if you ask me. Running a 50wt oil in a RSX, which has only 165 or so HP to begin with is not doing any good. Why not use a lighter viscosity and get better HP and MPG?

quote:

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I said it before and I say it again....this site has a tendency of making people worry way too much about the smallest of details, and probably 99% of the time, worry about stuff that is perfectly normal.

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Agree entirely.

[ September 20, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Jay]

quote:

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Originally posted by Last_Z:
Jay;
Are you forgetting that Chunky aut-x his car accasionally? That's the main reason he runs the 50w.
Also, his Lead is "0".....perfect bearing protection....what more are you guys asking for? I just don't understand you people?

Rick

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No. I think the 50-weight would not protect as well as a 30-weight especially in an auto-X. Heavy oils are not needed in high-rpm situations. They are needed in low-rpm, high-load conditions. A piston aircraft engine that makes 180 hp at 2,000 rpms needs a thick oil. A thick oil in a car engine that makes 160 hp at 6800 rpm only creates excess heat and robs power.

My lead was "0" as well for a 7,000 mile interval on 20-weight and "0" for the 7,000 mile interval before that on M1 5w-30.

 

[Jelly]

Why does this thread have to continue on?

Your lead wear was zero with xw-20/xw-30.

This guys lead wear was zero as well, but with xw-50.

15w-50 can protect very well in this engine...period!

Thread over

 

[TooSlick]

I'd agree with Jay ...you could run the M1, 10w-30 in this application with similiar wear numbers. Yet the oil temps would be cooler and fuel efficiency would be about 3%-5% better. High rpm engines are particularly well suited for low viscosity oils since you generate very high oil pressure. Low rpm, high load engines like diesels generally need heavier oils to maintain adequate oil pressure.

The M1, 15w-50 is a very good product, but i don't think you'd find a Mobil engineer recommending it for a new Honda/Acura engine unless you were racing it all the time.

Tooslick

 

[Jay]

Also, read Terry's comments about oil viscosity for racing this particular engine in this thread.

 

[Patman]

I hate to do this but this thread is getting too ugly and I'll have to lock it down now.