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#3108412 - 08/28/13 07:16 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Clevy]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
Originally Posted By: Clevy
So let me get this straight.
You ran a fram orange can 25000 miles. And the oil showed low insols,which means filtration wasn't compromised.
Considering how much mud and soot a diesel spews,and you used a low tier filter,and this low tier filter didn't plug up nor fail at 25000 miles.
If that doesn't shut up the 5000 mile filter change mantra so many here believe in then nothing will.

Thanks for the post. I just learned that even 10000 mile filter change intervals may even be over-doing it.
Awesome.


You're correct, I did run the Fram filter to 25k without a failure. Read closer, though - during the interval previous this one, I switched to a Baldwin filter mid-interval, and went 37k on that oil load. On this most recent one, I've gone 50k, with two mid-interval filter changes.

I believe your both your suggestion and the implied prediction are both correct: that should put the 5,000 mile FCI nonsense to rest...but it won't. Given a 'higher tier' filter, particularly, I believe an FCI before 15,000 is throwing money away.


Edited by Meathead (08/28/13 07:21 PM)

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#3112357 - 09/02/13 05:54 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5693
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
I would say that you've found a reasonable, practical limit to your OCI plan. 50k miles has put you near a typical condemnation point (perhaps upper limit of 100ppm for Fe), and yet your other metals were no where near any typical limit.

Your vis is creeping up, and even though the insolubles are in good shape, it's likely that your oxidation has caused thickening to the vis. It's not anywhere near dangerous, but it's telling you that things are changing, and they are not likely to be linear, and so the thickening would escalate if you continued.

Your wear rates, even at 50k miles, are commendable! Think of this folks: 50k miles and the Al and Cr are crazy LOW! There is no appreciable wear at the pistons or rings at all. The Fe will always be cumulative, and yet you averaged around 2ppm/1k miles over 50k miles! Even the Pb (which some might point to) is extremely low on a "per mile" basis.

The occasional top-off's have kept the TBN replenished. It would be great to see how TAN acts in concert; perhaps as you continue your UOAs, treat us all to some more info and get TAN along with TBN.

This is a nice showing for T6, but frankly the success is coming from your active participation in the OCI/UOA plan. I would expect that other good syns would do as well, because of how well you are tracking and using the data.

50k mile OCIs would be a practical limit here, and I would agree that running a few of these back to back would give you some true long-term ranges and trends. You can scale back, but there really isn't any reason to do so. When you get out this far, you should be letting the UOA data tell you when to OCI, and right now (this one example) shows 50k miles is safe and effective.

Further, excellent proof of how long filters can really perform, and how little they shift the wear data if one does shorter OCI/FCI plans. A clean running engine does not load up a filter much at all. The filter will certainly catch the larger particulate, but the frequency of those event is actually quite rare, and therefore the filter media rarely will saturate to a point of blinding off, in a healthy engine.

This is, without any doubt, proof of how a lube maintenace program is supposed to be run. The engine is in fine shape. The lube was used to a practical limit where further use would be of some risk. Rather than letting the odometer dictate your actions, you are using your brain to set reasonable condemnation limits, and as the data develops, you are actively managing the system as a whole.

Kudos, Meathead! You are one of the very few that actually get what UOAs and true "predictive maintenance" are all about. You leave most other BITOGers in the silica trail.


Edited by dnewton3 (09/02/13 05:59 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#3112929 - 09/02/13 07:22 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: dnewton3]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I would say that you've found a reasonable, practical limit to your OCI plan.

......

Kudos, Meathead!


Thank you, sir. I'll change my plan about what to do next 437 times between now and 40k, but I'll post up again with the next round of results.

Thanks again for your analysis.

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#3112947 - 09/02/13 07:29 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
DNVDMAX Offline


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 173
Loc: Alaska
Meathead, nice uoa and nice truck.

Did you run the tuner the whole 50k? Also, is your egr blocked?
_________________________
06 GMC 2500HD DMAX EFILIVE RT6 5w-40 BALDWIN
12 VERSA SEDAN G-OIL Syn 5w-30 Puralotor P1

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#3116473 - 09/06/13 06:48 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: DNVDMAX]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
Originally Posted By: DNVDMAX
Meathead, nice uoa and nice truck.

Did you run the tuner the whole 50k? Also, is your egr blocked?


Thanks. Yes, the tuner's been on since about 60k, and no, the egr is intact.

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#3122101 - 09/11/13 09:43 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
morepwr Offline


Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 1326
Loc: ventura, ca
It took me a while to read and digest all the info here, but I have to say thank you for this thread! Very interesting read and since I have an older Duramax it sure makes me re-think OCI.

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#3122581 - 09/12/13 12:24 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: dnewton3]
stockrex Offline


Registered: 01/08/06
Posts: 1365
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I love it! Big runs on nothing but a "normal" filter. Yes- Baldwins are good filters; if you have plenty of them, use them!

What I did this year with my Dmax is sample via my Fumoto, and send it in. Report came back fine; so I didn't OCI. I can easily go another year, given my operating pattern. I'll UOA again next fall, and make another determination. That is the beauty of the Fumoto valve; you can sample, get the info, and only then do you need to decide on any action required! Fumoto's not only make oil changes easy, they make oil sampling super easy!

I run my samples "live" (engine fully warmed up, engine running with truck in park, clean the valve, and pull the sample into the bottle while it idles. That is a true representation of the oil in its natural running state).


I would suggest considering this:
- At the next OCI, reset your OLM.
- Use the OLM to indiate when to take a sample; build some history. Each time the OLM indicates a change take another sample and gage the predicted lifecycle to see how much life is left in the lube; you'll be suprised how effective that can be
- Also use the OLM to FCI (filter change interval); it's an easy way to keep both in sync between the UOA and FCI patterns! Each FCI offers a bit of "top off" to replace the volume.

You follow that program, and you might just get to 50k miles!


Dave,
Do you have a dpf on your dmax? what year is your dmax? Sorry, being lazy here.

Mine is 08 and I think I do not have the 9th injector so fuel dilution is a major concern.

very impressive indeed,
_________________________
07Ridgeline:33k,08Dmax:14k,10Fit:40k:90Toyota1Ton:88k
Oil Whisperer!*Fear the DINO*

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#3122584 - 09/12/13 12:26 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: dnewton3]
stockrex Offline


Registered: 01/08/06
Posts: 1365
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
I find that a good Fluke laser-pointed IR thermometer makes a good substitute for gauge-fever.

Charlie


Yeah - but it's hard to drive the rig at 60mph and take EGTs with your head under the hood ... grin2


can you read the EGT off the ECM/ECU?
_________________________
07Ridgeline:33k,08Dmax:14k,10Fit:40k:90Toyota1Ton:88k
Oil Whisperer!*Fear the DINO*

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#3124425 - 09/14/13 07:44 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: stockrex]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5693
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted By: stockrex
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I love it! Big runs on nothing but a "normal" filter. Yes- Baldwins are good filters; if you have plenty of them, use them!

What I did this year with my Dmax is sample via my Fumoto, and send it in. Report came back fine; so I didn't OCI. I can easily go another year, given my operating pattern. I'll UOA again next fall, and make another determination. That is the beauty of the Fumoto valve; you can sample, get the info, and only then do you need to decide on any action required! Fumoto's not only make oil changes easy, they make oil sampling super easy!

I run my samples "live" (engine fully warmed up, engine running with truck in park, clean the valve, and pull the sample into the bottle while it idles. That is a true representation of the oil in its natural running state).


I would suggest considering this:
- At the next OCI, reset your OLM.
- Use the OLM to indiate when to take a sample; build some history. Each time the OLM indicates a change take another sample and gage the predicted lifecycle to see how much life is left in the lube; you'll be suprised how effective that can be
- Also use the OLM to FCI (filter change interval); it's an easy way to keep both in sync between the UOA and FCI patterns! Each FCI offers a bit of "top off" to replace the volume.

You follow that program, and you might just get to 50k miles!


Dave,
Do you have a dpf on your dmax? what year is your dmax? Sorry, being lazy here.

Mine is 08 and I think I do not have the 9th injector so fuel dilution is a major concern.

very impressive indeed,


I have an '06; no DPF.

The Dmax chronology goes like this, IIRC ...
LB7: no EGR, no DPF, no regens, no closed loop PCV (it dumped to atmosphere)
LLY: some EGR, no DPF, no regens, closed loop PCV now added
LBZ: a bit more EGR, no DPF, no regens, closed loop PCV
LMM: even more EGR, DPF added, regens run in-cylinder, closed loop PCV
LML: still more EGR, DPF, regens run downstream of engine via 9th injector, closed loop PCV,


This UOA series shows how wear become very predictable in a healthy engine. Note that the Al, Cr, Pb and Cu are still very low after 50k miles!!!!! The Fe is very steady. Super steady. His effective rate of Fe wear after 50k miles was no different than those who OCI at 10k miles! His average ppm/1k miles was just as good as those who change oil every 5k miles! In fact, it is actually BETTER, but we are talking about fractional ppm here.

Folks, this is how to use good data and make solid decisions. EVERY indicator here shows that wear was in control, contamination was very minimal, and he actually used the lube to a practical condemnation limit, rather than some arbitrary OCI set in one's fear-laden noodle.


Edited by dnewton3 (09/14/13 07:46 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#3423348 - 07/13/14 08:37 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: dnewton3]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I would say that you've found a reasonable, practical limit to your OCI plan. 50k miles has put you near a typical condemnation point (perhaps upper limit of 100ppm for Fe), and yet your other metals were no where near any typical limit.

Your vis is creeping up, and even though the insolubles are in good shape, it's likely that your oxidation has caused thickening to the vis. It's not anywhere near dangerous, but it's telling you that things are changing, and they are not likely to be linear, and so the thickening would escalate if you continued.



Thickening is indeed what has occurred. Unfortunately, I only made one mid-interval filter change at about 20k, so that may have played a part in the lead accumulation.

I bought a fifth wheel last October, and went to Michigan to get it. Since then, I've taken it on a couple of relatively short trips - trailer has 2,320 miles now. I understand that heavy towing can affect wear, etc, but I don't believe this limited amount could've had any significant impact. I've also towed my enclosed trailer approximately 4,000 miles during this OCI, but that's roughly the same as during previous intervals.




Again, I welcome any questions anyone here may have about this. Thanks also to dnewton for your insight and suggestions.

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#3424018 - 07/14/14 12:07 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
Jim_Truett Offline


Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 104
Loc: San Diego, California
Truly stellar results from your engine. If only GM could have put a Dana 60 under the front instead of their IFS I would have bought one in '08 instead of my F250.

How have your injectors and HPFP held up? I have an LB7 in my work truck on its third set of injectors at 135,000, and there is a leak somewhere in the fuel system. The HPFP loses prime after sitting for a few days.
_________________________
2008 F250 6.4 PowerStroke 32k
2008 Nissan Versa 132k
2005 Honda Pilot 207k
1963 Nova SS 83k
2013 Mahindra 3016HST 50hrs

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#3424156 - 07/14/14 08:05 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Jim_Truett]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
Originally Posted By: Jim_Truett
Truly stellar results from your engine. If only GM could have put a Dana 60 under the front instead of their IFS I would have bought one in '08 instead of my F250.

How have your injectors and HPFP held up? I have an LB7 in my work truck on its third set of injectors at 135,000, and there is a leak somewhere in the fuel system. The HPFP loses prime after sitting for a few days.


Injectors and CP3 have been flawless throughout the 367,000 miles. *knock on wood* You've no doubt already researched this, but I'd start with the OEM filter housing on your LB7 - you can get rebuild kits if it's just the o-rings leaking down, or could also replace the entire thing for relatively little expense.

FWIW, the front end, transfer case, the entire 4wd system has been absolutely trouble free, as well.

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#3425864 - 07/15/14 07:34 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
dustyroads Offline


Registered: 05/13/13
Posts: 336
Loc: upstate NY
I have to give you credit for getting the most from your oil. It looks pretty good but looking a couple samples back, I like the looks of the 37k sample better. That was still good for more but I thought maybe 40k-45k would get you good use without so much thickening.

Then again, I'm not sure if the oxidation in your 50k oil was harming anything other than fuel mileage.

The lead issue is out of my league (other than guessing it's a bearing problem). Have you checked around any Dmax sights for any other's experiences?

Again, I give you credit for having the guts to extend that far. I would just want to sample at the same time that you change the filter to make sure all was going well. Just my two cents.

Very interesting info. Thanks for posting!
_________________________
2011 Taurus sel

2012 Volvo big rig with D11

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#3428086 - 07/18/14 12:46 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
Jim_Truett Offline


Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 104
Loc: San Diego, California
Originally Posted By: Meathead
Originally Posted By: Jim_Truett
Truly stellar results from your engine. If only GM could have put a Dana 60 under the front instead of their IFS I would have bought one in '08 instead of my F250.

How have your injectors and HPFP held up? I have an LB7 in my work truck on its third set of injectors at 135,000, and there is a leak somewhere in the fuel system. The HPFP loses prime after sitting for a few days.


Injectors and CP3 have been flawless throughout the 367,000 miles. *knock on wood* You've no doubt already researched this, but I'd start with the OEM filter housing on your LB7 - you can get rebuild kits if it's just the o-rings leaking down, or could also replace the entire thing for relatively little expense.

FWIW, the front end, transfer case, the entire 4wd system has been absolutely trouble free, as well.


The housing has been gone through twice now. If I owned it I would have replaced the entire housing, but it has been random lately so not too urgent. A few pumps of the primer gets it going every time.

The front end is more of a personal preference. I just like solid axles. I killed the front end in the work truck once. I hit a concrete structure at 3mph (seriously) turning right at full lock. Snapped the left tie rod, bent the right, damaged drag link and pitman. The truck has a big service body and is too heavy, but the damage just seemed excessive. The only evidence of the hit was a 1/2" crack in the OEM plastic hub cap.
_________________________
2008 F250 6.4 PowerStroke 32k
2008 Nissan Versa 132k
2005 Honda Pilot 207k
1963 Nova SS 83k
2013 Mahindra 3016HST 50hrs

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#3428190 - 07/18/14 07:08 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Jim_Truett]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
I have to give you credit for getting the most from your oil. It looks pretty good but looking a couple samples back, I like the looks of the 37k sample better. That was still good for more but I thought maybe 40k-45k would get you good use without so much thickening.


That's exactly what I'm thinking. As I believe I've noted before, my compulsion to stretch to 50k was as much academic as anything, and once I got the first one and everything looked so good, I thought I might keep it up. On this UOA, with the lead accumulation, etc, and given the fact I've got that fifth wheel now and have been towing my smaller enclosed trailer a bit more, I'm thinking I'll drop back to 40k or so.

What I need to do first, though, is be more diligent about my filter changes at 15k, and sample either mid-interval at 25k, or just at the same time as the second filter change at 30k (more likely). That was my intention on this oil load, but, well...I just got slack, I guess. If that sample gives some indication that the lead accumulation in this oil load may have been due largely to my neglecting the filter, then I may go 50k this one more time, just to get a more scientific, apples-to-apples comparison. If that 25/30k sample looks like it's tracking to match this one, I'll probably dump at 40k.


Originally Posted By: dustyroads
Then again, I'm not sure if the oxidation in your 50k oil was harming anything other than fuel mileage.


I'll have to reveal my ignorance.. Is there reliable evidence that oxidation can cause significant fuel mileage loss? I've honestly never even considered that, but HAVE been chasing an approximate 1 mpg loss in fuel efficiency for the last 6 months or so.


Originally Posted By: dustyroads
The lead issue is out of my league (other than guessing it's a bearing problem). Have you checked around any Dmax sights for any other's experiences?


No, I haven't. It may just be denial, though I have read something here and there that suggests it's nothing to be concerned about on such a long OCI. If anybody else here has any insight on that, I'd love to hear it.



Originally Posted By: Jim_Truett
The front end is more of a personal preference. I just like solid axles. I killed the front end in the work truck once. I hit a concrete structure at 3mph (seriously) turning right at full lock. Snapped the left tie rod, bent the right, damaged drag link and pitman. The truck has a big service body and is too heavy, but the damage just seemed excessive. The only evidence of the hit was a 1/2" crack in the OEM plastic hub cap.


I understand completely. Truth is, even if only from an aesthetics standpoint, if I had my 'druthers, I'd have a solid front end, too. I actually like the look of the Fords, and prefer the "stance" of a 250/350 over the Chevrolets, but the value of the Duramax and, more importantly, the Allison, FAR outweighed any of those preferences at the time I purchased this truck. There are, no doubt, people who've had experiences with Chevy HD trucks that're counter to mine, but this truck has been as dead-reliable and strong as any vehicle I've ever even known of, much less owned myself. I could list off it's merits, but the list is too long.

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