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#2429570 - 11/09/11 06:54 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
My name is Jim and I'm a Gauge-o-Haulic. Don't tell me I don't need no stinking gauges. Of course... I can quit at any time.

_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#2429751 - 11/09/11 10:24 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5618
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
LOL

I wondered how long it would take ...



Edited by dnewton3 (11/09/11 10:25 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#2429755 - 11/09/11 10:31 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Jim Allen]
BoiseRob Offline


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 233
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
My name is Jim and I'm a Gauge-o-Haulic. Don't tell me I don't need no stinking gauges. Of course... I can quit at any time.


Jim.

I still see dash board so you have room for more. How about inlet air temp or a drive-shaft rotation gauge? lol

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#2429976 - 11/09/11 02:07 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Smokefan1977]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
Originally Posted By: Smokefan1977
You may speak with Mike at Ingelwood Transmissions. He is the best Allison builder and the cost is actually less then suncoast is. He uses a propiatary SC converter and many suncoast parts but does some of his own machining aswell. I have built many high HP Dmax's and my expierence with mike trannys have been 100% perfect. never a failure


No doubt Mike's one of the best Allison builders. He spent a bit of time on the phone with me when I installed my Transgo Jr. and had an 'extra parts left over' episode - helped me get it all straightened out and never asked anything in return. I've also spent a couple of dyno days with the guys down at Suncoast, though, and they're top-notch folks, as well. Since I'm in the Southeast, I've just been thinkin' it'd be easier, quicker, etc. to deal with them, but I'll definitely do an 'apples-to-apples' pricing check before I do either.

In all honesty, given my current cash-flow status, I'm hopin' that's a decision I won't have to make any time soon..


Edited by Meathead (11/09/11 02:09 PM)

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#2552264 - 02/29/12 11:23 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
Ponch Offline


Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Bay City Michigan
"Meathead" did you go the full run with just one fram oil filter? Or did you change a few along the way? If NOT that is very impressive!

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#2576618 - 03/22/12 08:28 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
I've hit another OCI, and have another positive report from Blackstone. I was headed out to Arizona and back, pulling about 8,000 lbs, so I cut the interval just a bit short this time. It'll go about that distance longer on the next one. Blackstone's comments are there to be read, and they confirm what I'm doing is just fine. I agree with the idea that dino oil is perfectly good, but I drive so many miles, I'd be doing oil changes constantly. I also agree with the school of thought that synthetic is only worth it if you extend the OCIs, and I think 25k qualifies. Maybe I will go 30k next time..

http://meathead.smugmug.com/Trucks/Williebago-Upgrades/i-gSVQkXb/0/L/Blackstone-228089-L.jpg


Originally Posted By: Ponch
"Meathead" did you go the full run with just one fram oil filter? Or did you change a few along the way? If NOT that is very impressive!


I had that previous time, but based on what I saw of that filter after cutting it open, I moved to changing the filter mid-interval this time. I haven't cut this most recent filter yet, though.

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#2578299 - 03/24/12 05:04 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5618
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Very nice update!

AT this point, you need to start thinking about the condemnation levels you might set for yourself. The Fe is tracking with mileage and doing well. The Pb, Cu and Al are all VERY low on a "per mile" basis. The TBN is strong, the contamination almost non-existent.

Blackstone often takes a very conservative approach to recommending the extensions; only a few thousand miles at a time.

Some time ago I posted a link where some of the major diesel equipment manufaturers referenced their condemation limits. I would think 100ppm of Fe is reasonable. At that point, you could likley get near 50k miles out of this sump load, if the TBN and insolubles stay in control. Given your plan to FCI more often, that will also bolster the add pack with a bit of top off. If you did filter changes every 15k miles, and UOAs every 15k miles, I would not be suprised to see you capable of 45-50k miles, if all other things stay in tune!

Excellent example of safe, effective oil change extensions!


Edited by dnewton3 (03/24/12 05:04 PM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#2800399 - 11/12/12 03:05 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
I reached another OCI, now extended even further (actually, even further than I intended...sort of). This one went 37,666 miles. Given Blackstone's comments, I think I'm gonna stick with 35,000 from here on out, but I may well talk myself into 40k with another filter change mid-interval.




Edited by Meathead (11/12/12 03:09 PM)

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#2801022 - 11/13/12 04:26 AM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5618
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
ABSOLUTELY OUTSTANDING!
Congratulations!

You are using a syn for the intended purpose. You are eschewing the tired mantra of "OCI early and often" and proving that longer OCI runs are not only possible, but pay for themselves.

You wear metals are clearly settled; in particular the Al, Cr Pb and Cu are all so low that wear is (for all pratical purposes) nearly non-existent. Only the Fe is rising, and that is completely expected and normal. GM does not publish condemnation limits for fluids that I'm aware of, but I'd say perhaps 100ppm of Fe is a reasonable consideration. I would not worry about the Pb; it's well withing "normal" variation. Only if you saw a very significant escalation in your next UOA would I be concerned.

The fuel, coolant, silicon, FP, vis, insolubles and even TBN are all very good.

KUDOS!

This is a perfect example of how to get the ROI on a fluid.
So very often, I get harrased because I'm perceived to be against synthetics; nothing could be further from the truth. I am against wasting fluids; any fluids. What you have shown here is excellent dedication and control of your conditions, resulting in an excellent pay-back from your expenditure. You have far exceeded the ROI and are reaping the real, true benefits of using a syn. And it doesn't hurt that this is in a Dmax, which has proven itself to be one of the best-wearing light-duty diesel engines of all time.

Stay the course; I'd say running up to 40k miles is not a bad idea at all.

I would suggest you consider getting a Fumoto valve, so that you can sample prior to dumping, and then be able to make a decision before releasing the fluid. I've forgotten; do you have one? The great benefit to using one of these is that you could sample on some reasonable interval, and know how the fluid and metals are progressing along the way, rather than waiting to the end of a guestimated OCI.

A few more questions: are you still using a Fram PH9100 (the OCOD?). How often are your FCIs (filter change intervals)? Are you running a bypass, or just changing the filter on some predetermined interval? Whatever you're doing, it's clearly working well.


Edited by dnewton3 (11/13/12 04:34 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#2801429 - 11/13/12 01:10 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: dnewton3]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Stay the course; I'd say running up to 40k miles is not a bad idea at all.


Yeah, the more I study this, the more I think I'll push just a bit further. I had hoped to make it to 50k ultimately, and may do so yet.


Originally Posted By: dnewton
I would suggest you consider getting a Fumoto valve, so that you can sample prior to dumping, and then be able to make a decision before releasing the fluid. I've forgotten; do you have one? The great benefit to using one of these is that you could sample on some reasonable interval, and know how the fluid and metals are progressing along the way, rather than waiting to the end of a guestimated OCI.


I do have a Fumoto installed, have since 156k. I obviously use it to pull the sample at the end of the OCI, and intend to use it mid-OCI, but I've never thought of using it at the end, as a means of determining whether to unload the oil or extend the interval further. I'll definitely use that idea in the future.


Originally Posted By: dnewton
A few more questions: are you still using a Fram PH9100 (the OCOD?). How often are your FCIs (filter change intervals)? Are you running a bypass, or just changing the filter on some predetermined interval? Whatever you're doing, it's clearly working well.


I changed the filter this time at about 11k, and just shy of 25k, the first was a Fram PH9100, but at the 11k swap, I made the switch to a Baldwin somethin'or'nother (can't recall the number right now). I bought a case of those, so I'll be using the Baldwins for quite a while. There's no bypass filtration. My intent was for the FCI to be roughly 1/3 of the OCI but, as noted, the OCI remains a moving target. I don't doubt the Baldwin filter is a better filter than the Fram was, but having gone 25k+ with the Fram in the past with no failure, I'm not too concerned about the FCIs. I don't want to push 'em that far - filters are too cheap, but I'll change 'em when it's convenient and I've got some time rather than getting too concerned about sticking to a rigid schedule.


Edited by Meathead (11/13/12 01:19 PM)

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#2801504 - 11/13/12 02:49 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5618
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
I love it! Big runs on nothing but a "normal" filter. Yes- Baldwins are good filters; if you have plenty of them, use them!

What I did this year with my Dmax is sample via my Fumoto, and send it in. Report came back fine; so I didn't OCI. I can easily go another year, given my operating pattern. I'll UOA again next fall, and make another determination. That is the beauty of the Fumoto valve; you can sample, get the info, and only then do you need to decide on any action required! Fumoto's not only make oil changes easy, they make oil sampling super easy!

I run my samples "live" (engine fully warmed up, engine running with truck in park, clean the valve, and pull the sample into the bottle while it idles. That is a true representation of the oil in its natural running state).


I would suggest considering this:
- At the next OCI, reset your OLM.
- Use the OLM to indiate when to take a sample; build some history. Each time the OLM indicates a change take another sample and gage the predicted lifecycle to see how much life is left in the lube; you'll be suprised how effective that can be
- Also use the OLM to FCI (filter change interval); it's an easy way to keep both in sync between the UOA and FCI patterns! Each FCI offers a bit of "top off" to replace the volume.

You follow that program, and you might just get to 50k miles!
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#2801547 - 11/13/12 03:39 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: dnewton3]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I run my samples "live" (engine fully warmed up, engine running with truck in park, clean the valve, and pull the sample into the bottle while it idles. That is a true representation of the oil in its natural running state).


That's how I pull the sample, as well. I have yet to do a mid-interval UOA, though. My thinking thus far, and my only objection to the program you suggest, is that.. The whole objective here is to save money by guaranteeing I'm fully utilizing the oil. If I do 2 more UOAs during a 40k OCI, along with the one at the change, I've spent another $50 - roughly half the cost of the oil change itself. If I'm gonna spend that much money, I could just step back to a 30k OCI and drop the UOA altogether.

There certainly is value in knowing how the engine is wearing, and in the heads-up provided by the UOA with respect to any impending catastrophic component failures. The hesitation about spending the money doesn't take that into account, but therein lies the struggle.. I do believe I'm optimizing the ROI for the synthetic oil, but I'm also aware now, that I'm at (or approaching) a point of diminishing returns. I may well end up pushing to 45 or 50k, but more for academic reasons than financial ones. I can't imagine attempting to go beyond 50k, regardless what the UOA says.

All that said, I think I likely will start doing a single mid-interval UOA, if only for the sake of monitoring the engine wear, given the OCI is too long to catch many things that may have shown themselves had I done so. Also, at least on this next run, I may well pull the second sample at 40, then wait the 3-4 days required for Blackstone to provide results, before I make the decision whether to push to 45 or 50k. Either way, at this pace, it'll be mid-March next year before the mid-interval sample, so I'll post that report and ask that you and others make whatever suggestions you have again then.

Thanks for all the input.


Edited by Meathead (11/13/12 03:45 PM)

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#2801683 - 11/13/12 05:30 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5618
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Understood.

Very impressive return on you efforts, to be sure.
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#3108381 - 08/28/13 06:45 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
Meathead Offline


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Upstate SC
Originally Posted By: Meathead
All that said, I think I likely will start doing a single mid-interval UOA, if only for the sake of monitoring the engine wear, given the OCI is too long to catch many things that may have shown themselves had I done so. Also, at least on this next run, I may well pull the second sample at 40, then wait the 3-4 days required for Blackstone to provide results, before I make the decision whether to push to 45 or 50k.


I didn't do that. Instead, I plowed my way all the way to a 50k OCI, and sent the sample in then. At the moment, I believe I will step the OCI back to 40-45k, just for peace of mind, but I'm in no way concerned that any harm has been done here. As I stated before, I felt compelled to go 50k one time, if only for academic reasons.

Again this time, the Baldwin filter was changed at (roughly) 15k and 32k, and make-up oil was added as needed. The indicated 8 quarts of make-up is perhaps a bit misleading, as the final 1.25 quarts was added within the final 6-8k. Regardless, even the 8 quarts falls well within what I understand to be normal consumption.

In general, this truck has been a dream to own and drive. 315,000 miles in just shy of 7 years, with just a few necessary repairs, none of which were engine related, and none of which would be considered major. I will likely ease up on the OCI stretch, but I fully intend and expect to push this truck well past the half-million mile mark, and expect I'll enjoy the next 315,000 every bit as much as I have the last.

I'll be interested to see your thoughts wrt the condemnation limits here, Mr. Newton..




Edited by Meathead (08/28/13 06:54 PM)

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#3108395 - 08/28/13 07:00 PM Re: '07 LBZ UOA @ 175,000 [Re: Meathead]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7351
Loc: Saskatoon canada
So let me get this straight.
You ran a fram orange can 25000 miles. And the oil showed low insols,which means filtration wasn't compromised.
Considering how much mud and soot a diesel spews,and you used a low tier filter,and this low tier filter didn't plug up nor fail at 25000 miles.
If that doesn't shut up the 5000 mile filter change mantra so many here believe in then nothing will.

Thanks for the post. I just learned that even 10000 mile filter change intervals may even be over-doing it.
Awesome.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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