anyone have complete specs for Total Quartz 9000

[dennishiip]

I'm mostly interested in ZPPD. I see that this oil has MB and Porsche approval, but it's API SM rating indicates it should have 939 ppm Zn and 770 ppm P.(1200ppm Zn and 994 ppm P is minimal for my car as per LN Engineering) It has ACEA A3/B4 rating I think.I really feel best with SE-SJ And Sl API rating due to the higher levels of Zn and P that's recommended for my Porsche 996. My parts supplier sells Total Quartz 9000 at a good price and free shipping that's why I would like to use it.

 

[riggaz]

Originally Posted By: dennishiip
I'm mostly interested in ZPPD. I see that this oil has MB and Porsche approval, but it's API SM rating indicates it should have 939 ppm Zn and 770 ppm P.(1200ppm Zn and 994 ppm P is minimal for my car as per LN Engineering) It has ACEA A3/B4 rating I think.I really feel best with SE-SJ And Sl API rating due to the higher levels of Zn and P that's recommended for my Porsche 996. My parts supplier sells Total Quartz 9000 at a good price and free shipping that's why I would like to use it.


If it has the Porsche A40 approval then use it with confidence

ZDDP is reduced and replaced with something else usually

High amounts of ZDDP don't equate to no wear, it's just one of many EP additives

 

[Finklejag]

What weight? 5W-40? The SM 5W-40's are allowed to have higher ZN and P then the other SM weights. What kind of price are we talking about?

This was just posted in the UOA section. Maybe contact him and ask if he used the SM stuff?

Total UOA

 

[dennishiip]

OK....it's 5W/40 that I'm interested in. Price at AutohausAz.com is $8.79L/$35.63 5L for Total Quartz 9000 with no tax an no shipping for $50 or more on purchase. I might be getting carried away with all this oil stuff but after reading the LN Engineering website on oil- specifically related to Porsche, I'm pretty convinced that the right oil matters in these cars. These engines are very expensive and the evidence seems to show an increase in engine failure due to the newer SM oils over the older SL/SJ rated oils. This is likely due to the decrease in zinc in the SM oil to protect catalytic converters. Then again maybe it only really matters at very high and extended RPMs as in racing. I've read where that's were higher levels of zink come into play. This is crazy making

 

[30valve]

I believe Castrol Syntech 5w-40 is still only a SL oil and is on the Porsche approved list.

 

[dennishiip]

yes, Castrol Syntec 5W-40. Also, I think Pennzoil Platinum Syn European 5W-40, Quaker State European Formula 5W-40, and Redline 5W-40 (due to high HTHS rating) are good choices, but aren't available where I live and I'd have to pay dearly and shipping. Oh well, after all I drive a Porsche so I must endure the added expense unless someone can show me that the Total Quartz is the stuff.

 

[A_Harman]

Have you considered buying a zddp supplement such as ZDDPlus or Redline break-in additive? You could put in any SM or SN-rated 5w40, then use the additive to get the recommended level of Phosphorous.

The ZDDPlus website has a lot of good information on wear protection and modern oils.

 

[Luxter]

I cannot find the original document on the web any more, but here it is pasted straight from Total PDF.
Those interested, please email me and I will send you the PDf. It's only 141kB in size.

Choosing engine oil: bad habits can hurt.
Visiting many Porsche specialists in the past few weeks, I have been able to witness the devastating consequences that a wrong choice of oil could have on the cams of Porsche engines. I have also been made once again aware of the quasi-spiritual nature of “oil choice”. As the representative of a large oil and lubricant company, I found myself justifying the reasonable choices of the lubricant industry and realizing that most oil companies have given up on explaining their products, including to their distributors. The result is much mis-information, that I will try and address in this article.
Table comparing what I heard versus what I know:
Statements I heard or read:
Fact:
The “government” is taking away the ZDTP from our engine oils, and the new oils do not protect old engines enough against cam wear.
The government is demanding longer warranties on catalytic converters of new cars. ILSAC, the oil standardization board for Domestic and Japanese cars, has set limits on the content in catalyst-polluting Sulfur and Phosphorus in their GF-3 and GF-4 standards. No European manufacturer recommend ILSAC GF-4 for any vehicle. European carmakers have their own oil standards (more below). In the field, many oil wholesalers ignore that information and focus their offering on the “high volume” market of Japanese and Domestic cars, still assuming that the needs of European cars will be “close enough”. That can be a problem not only for Porsche, but for any European car.
Since “they” took away the ZDTP, let us put it back in the form of after-market additives, or call Brand X who has sworn to not follow any third-party spec and make “the best lubricants possible”.
Protecting the cams against premature wear is only one of many more functions of a good engine lubricant. The oil must also cool the engine, prevent sludge, clean it, fight corrosion to mention only the main functions. Sludge has been a big problem in recent years.
Organizations like API, ILSAC, ACEA, as well as car manufacturers test as many of these properties that they can to serve a specific category of cars, while following a budget for testing and a maximum cost of finished product. For Porsche and European cars, this testing is longer and more expensive. Look for the “Porsche”, VW 502.00 or ACEA A3/B4 approvals, proof that the oil passed not only an appropriate cam wear test, but also a sludge and corrosion test, among others.
Aftermarket additives are an extra load to carry for the detergent chemistry of engine oils. Saturating those detergents is what creates sludge.
Diesel oils “are not API formulated”, have plenty of ZDTP and can safely be used in older Porsche.
Diesel oils are formulated for diesel heavy-duty trucks. These engines are designed for low RPM (1000 to 1500) and contain 5 to 10 gallons of oil that stays much cooler than most gasoline engine oils. Diesel oils usually follow one of the latest API
specifications: API CH-4, API CI-4 or now API CJ-4. This latest category CJ-4 is “backward compatible” but has, like the ILSAC spec, some limits on Sulfur and Phosphorus. These limits are higher than for the ILSAC spec, but expect newer diesel oils to have diminished amounts of ZDTP as well.
I am not trying to knock down the crutches that the Porsche community has been using to solve the very real problem of cam wear. Rather, I would want to make the case that if the way oil was chosen has failed, now may be a good time to re-examine the way we choose oil. In short, brands are just brands. Trying to second guess the chemists is more and more futile. Only improving our knowledge of the engine oil testing procedures, and checking what oil passed what test is the professional and safe way to choose engine oil.
Oil technology is complex and every sales guy has a good story, so let us sidestep technology for now.
Let us rather concentrate on the universe in which we, sales guys, operate: realities of the business world.
To make and distribute oil at a competitive price, a company must be able to manufacture or buy the components at a competitive price, and have enough of a market to pay for the development and manufacturing cost. That company has to be able to “be a player”. Once that company decides to “be a player”, say, in the Porsche market, then the sound and professional way to operate is to present the finished product to Porsche so they put it through the Porsche 996FL Engine test. This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through:
- 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving,
- 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving,
- 40 cold starts,
- 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the “Nürburgring” racetrack,
- 3.5 hours of “running-in” program
Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter will be taken into account to grant the approval or not:
- torque curve (internal friction),
- oxidation of the oil,
- Piston cleanliness and ring sticking,
- Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 um.
- Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible.
- Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method.
Several mechanics told me that they were relying on “their own testing” to choose an oil. None of these mechanics showed me that their method came close to matching what Porsche does: running dozens of oils through the same 203-hour test, and comparing the results.
This test has been designed by Porsche to guarantee the availability of test-proven oils for all Porsche since model year 1973: the letter (attached) given to oil manufacturers specifies that date.
This oil testing procedure exists specifically to avoid the wear cam problems created by the fiasco of ILSAC GF-4 being recommended in Porsche by some distributors. Why not use the Porsche testing to choose your oil?
All the large oil companies, including Mobil 1 of course, and many smaller companies, have one or several formulas that successfully passed this test. The “Porsche recommends Mobil 1” advertising is confusing: the most available Mobil 1 products found at Wal-mart or Jiffy Lube meet the ILSAC GF-4 spec and are NOT approved by Porsche. A clearer advertising statement would say “Mobil 1 0W40 passed the Porsche engine test”.
The problem for oil companies is to make their Porsche-approved formulas easily available and affordable to the Porsche community when many of their wholesalers care about volume (gallons) more than about oil technology. We have chosen to distribute our ELF Excellium NF 5W40 through German auto specialists who make that oil available to consumers at a price competitive with any fully synthetic oil.
Now, some oil companies claim they need no approval from Porsche because they found a better solution, at a cheaper cost, and they ask you to take their word for it. They are “opportunity players”: they claim that they saw a problem and decided to fix it. You may have tried their product, and found that they have a point. Now, if their story was true without any “side effect” to be expected later, if they found a real and durable solution, then they would do what the “players” do: they would get their products tested by the factory and gain access to the larger market. If, say, an industrial oil company can make the right product and venture into the Porsche market, good for them. They should let Porsche know! Why do they not do it? You may want a clear answer to that question.
If they say they’re “too small”, then they probably do not have a cheap access to the raw material in the first place, so how can they be competitive? If the company is large enough and still does not get the approval, you are probably listening to a particularly gifted regional salesman.
Porsche-approved oils are usually fully synthetic, not to claim “synthetic” on the label, but because the raw material that can withstand the Porsche testing happens to be synthetic. These oils may cost a few dollars more that the usual “shop oil”. I hope I explained why.
What’s next? I have been through similar explanations of factory oil specs in the past, like with Volkswagen in 2003-2004, and what followed was a flurry of claims saying “meets or exceeds the VW spec” on engine oil labels. The next step was for Volkswagen to release complete lists of the oils that actually met the spec, which of course did not please the oil company having a marketing deal with Volkswagen… This may happen with Porsche too, but here are the facts. Porsche of America has a list of approved oils, and each approved company should be able to display to you a letter similar to the one in attachment. This may not be a perfect solution, but to me, it sure beats thinking of Porsche engines like “Diesel engines” or believing the sales rep who tells me that his “proprietary” XXTZP999 additive prevents wear cam like no other…
Hervé Blanquart is a sales engineer for Total Lubricants USA, Inc. and supports the distribution of ELF engine oils in the Western United States. He can be reached at [email protected]

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Luxter - The alleged "Total" document put up by you states this:

"This test has been designed by Porsche to guarantee the availability of test-proven oils for all Porsche since model year 1973: the letter (attached) given to oil manufacturers specifies that date."

In this case the document must be approaching a decade old! No Porsche TISB 1701 (Approvals) has proclaimed this since 2003-4. All A40 lubricants are retrospective to 1984 not 1973 - a large difference in Porsche technologies! You or Total may have a Letter that supercedes the TISBs - please let us see it!

And as for using diesel engine oils (HD or HDEOs)(API dual rated - C?/S?)well, Porsche used these as their Factory Fill until the 1970s+ - many 911 engines still wear the Shell Rotella (Rimula) labels in their engine compartments. The correct viscosity (ambient driven) is very important - and thicker than an SAE40 is not always productive! They work very well in engines built prior to 1984 and later too!

I have been advising the use of Factory Approved and Listed lubricants for a very long time indeed (many decades) - many here on BITOG have their own viewpoints of course!

 

[Luxter]

Hi Doug and all,
All I have is a PDF that I copied to the post above and copy Elf Ecxellium Porsche approval dated Oct. 2006 together in one document which would indicate that this doc is about 5 y.o. I can't remember where I downloaded it from any more.
I also would not be surprised if this document was created around first Porsche apporval date for Excellium, don't have access to all issues of A40's. Would 2006 match it?
If you or anybody else can post it on BITOG, I will gladly share it. Send me a message with email address and I will forward it to you. I am unable to post it at this moment.
The other option is to contact Herve directly at the address included in last paragraph.
Hope that helps, looking forward to work together.
Cheers,
L

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
in 1999 some Elf (Excellium LGX 0W-40) and Total-Fina (5W-40 and 10W-50) products were on Porsche's Approved List

None of their products appeared on the 2005 or 2006 Lists. In 2007 Elf Excellium NF 5W-40, Total Quartz 9000 Energy and Quartz 9000 5W-40 were present - with currencies (then) until 9/2009. I suspect that they are still A40 Approved after the required updates etc.

The A40 List is retrospective to 1994. In July 2009 Porsche's Advanced Engineering & Powertrain Dept,Weissach issued a Letter to that effect. This is why Porsche here use a semi-synthetic 10W-40 lubricant in pre 1994 engines and have done for some time now

I suspect in the coming period that Porsche and VW-Audi lubricant Approvals will beome more closely aligned especially in joint engineered components

Many lubricant labels do state outdated Approvals and this is why Porsche has a currency limit of two years IIRC, and ACEA has a currency matrix and appropriate labelling

IMO and for the OP I believe that Quartz 9000 is a quality product and has a long Porsche Approval history - that said it is not better nor worse than other comparable products Listed

 

[MI_Roger]

Quote:
This was just posted in the UOA section. Maybe contact him and ask if he used the SM stuff?


That would have been me. The empty bottles are now long gone but I believe they were labeled as SM.

You can get the specs off Total's web site. This oil costs me $5.95/litre here in the Detroit area.

 

[dennishiip]

Thanks Luxter. I emailed Herve at Total. Here's what he forwarded to me for those who are interested: Quartz Total 5W-40

HTST 3.8
Zinc 1100 ppm
P 980 ppm
Porsche A40
VW 502.00,505.00

Looks good to me, I wonder why Total does not flaunt these stats

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: dennishiip
Thanks Luxter. I emailed Herve at Total. Here's what he forwarded to me for those who are interested: Quartz Total 5W-40

HTST 3.8
Zinc 1100 ppm
P 980 ppm
Porsche A40
VW 502.00,505.00

Looks good to me, I wonder why Total does not flaunt these stats


They don't due to it being the same as other mid-SAPS Euro oils. The spec limits additive levels, so all should be close to the same.

The biggest unique things with Euro oils is base stock, moly and boron levels. (and visco differences)

 

[Luxter]

Originally Posted By: dennishiip
Thanks Luxter. I emailed Herve at Total. Here's what he forwarded to me for those who are interested: Quartz Total 5W-40

HTST 3.8
Zinc 1100 ppm
P 980 ppm
Porsche A40
VW 502.00,505.00

Looks good to me, I wonder why Total does not flaunt these stats


Welcome! Pleasure is mine. It's a great oil. I have 10L in my garage waiting for next oil change.