Does anyone know if these are the same coolant? or at least compatible? Aside from the color, I'm told they are both phosphate and silicate free, but does anyone know if there is anything different between the two?
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Honda Type II vs Nissan Blue Long Life
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It's propriety information that they are unwilling to share. And japanese coolants are silicate free but not phosphate free. Dated info but a good read http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/082004_04.pdf
I agree that all first generation Japanese P-OAT coolants are essentialy the same and that all second generation Japanese P-OAT coolants are essentially the same. But my research suggests that the formulas may be a bit more complex than mechanicx describes.
Here is a description from a patent application of the first-generation Toyota P-OAT coolant:
"Fluid F is Toyota's Long Life red coolant, an organic acid based coolant containing benzoic acid, phosphoric acid, molybdate, azoles, 2-phosphono-butane-1,2,4-tricarboxylic acid, nitrate, dye, antifoam, and water soluble calcium and magnesium salts, but without water soluble polymer."
Benzoic acid is an organic acid. Second generation Japanese P-OAT coolants include other organic acid(s) -- perhaps sebacic acid -- but I have not yet found a precise description.
I agree with mechanicx that Subaru has historically used Japanese P-OAT coolants. I found the following description in mastertechmag.com, June 2006:
"Subaru’s branded antifreeze is a good example ofthe Japanese philosophy. It combines the benefits of OAT and phosphate (non-amine) chemistry, which establishes a semi-permanent protective coating on metal surfaces even if the coolant level is allowed to fall. It also contains sebacate, the organic acid used in most extended-life anti-freezes. In addition, it contains an inhibitor chemically similar to benzoate, the organic acid used in conventional antifreezes."
The reduced service life for second generation P-OAT coolant in replacement applications is reportedly based on uncertainties about contaminants that may linger in the cooling system. Most coolant replacement procedures do not completely eliminate all of the old coolant.
Japanese OEM coolants are typically overpriced. I would try to find Motorcraft Specialty Green Coolant which is supposedly identical to Mazda FL22 (a second generation P-OAT). It is advertised (by Ford) as available in undiluted form. Mazda FL22 only comes premixed.
Here is a description from a patent application of the first-generation Toyota P-OAT coolant:
"Fluid F is Toyota's Long Life red coolant, an organic acid based coolant containing benzoic acid, phosphoric acid, molybdate, azoles, 2-phosphono-butane-1,2,4-tricarboxylic acid, nitrate, dye, antifoam, and water soluble calcium and magnesium salts, but without water soluble polymer."
Benzoic acid is an organic acid. Second generation Japanese P-OAT coolants include other organic acid(s) -- perhaps sebacic acid -- but I have not yet found a precise description.
I agree with mechanicx that Subaru has historically used Japanese P-OAT coolants. I found the following description in mastertechmag.com, June 2006:
"Subaru’s branded antifreeze is a good example ofthe Japanese philosophy. It combines the benefits of OAT and phosphate (non-amine) chemistry, which establishes a semi-permanent protective coating on metal surfaces even if the coolant level is allowed to fall. It also contains sebacate, the organic acid used in most extended-life anti-freezes. In addition, it contains an inhibitor chemically similar to benzoate, the organic acid used in conventional antifreezes."
The reduced service life for second generation P-OAT coolant in replacement applications is reportedly based on uncertainties about contaminants that may linger in the cooling system. Most coolant replacement procedures do not completely eliminate all of the old coolant.
Japanese OEM coolants are typically overpriced. I would try to find Motorcraft Specialty Green Coolant which is supposedly identical to Mazda FL22 (a second generation P-OAT). It is advertised (by Ford) as available in undiluted form. Mazda FL22 only comes premixed.
Thanks for your input Ponderosa I think you brought up an important point..."The reduced service life for second generation P-OAT coolant in replacement applications is reportedly based on uncertainties about contaminants that may linger in the cooling system. Most coolant replacement procedures do not completely eliminate all of the old coolant" I agree and as stated in Paul Weissler's 2004 article....A complete coolant exchange can
be done manually, if you have a lot of
time and infinite patience, plus a willingness
to lose money on the job.... So if you are able to do a proper flush and fill, a long service life can be expected from the exchange.
be done manually, if you have a lot of
time and infinite patience, plus a willingness
to lose money on the job.... So if you are able to do a proper flush and fill, a long service life can be expected from the exchange.
Yes what I said was a simplification to what I thought was relative. The long life ingredients of azoles and molybdate for solder protection and brass-copper radiators, the 2-phospho I think is a scale inhibitor, as is probably the calcium and magnesium salts, nitrate for aluminum protection. I've heard that Toyota LL has an additive for magnesium protection, but not sure where the magnesium is used.
Maybe one Toyot engine at one time?
I guess the bottom line is the 2 coolants types are functionally equivalent for all the Japanese brands. and that sebacic did away with the need for nitrate, molybdate, benzoate. And plastic aluminum radiators did away with the need for molybdate and the azoles.
I still don't buy into the 10 year FF service interval even if you did a complete drain, when they are cutting the service fill life in half. If the argument is you can't get a full change then that's more the reason to change the FF sooner anyway. My thinking is the shorten interval is because if you don't get a full change and due to their premix, you may not get a 50% concentrate of new coolant.
Maybe one Toyot engine at one time?
I guess the bottom line is the 2 coolants types are functionally equivalent for all the Japanese brands. and that sebacic did away with the need for nitrate, molybdate, benzoate. And plastic aluminum radiators did away with the need for molybdate and the azoles.
I still don't buy into the 10 year FF service interval even if you did a complete drain, when they are cutting the service fill life in half. If the argument is you can't get a full change then that's more the reason to change the FF sooner anyway. My thinking is the shorten interval is because if you don't get a full change and due to their premix, you may not get a 50% concentrate of new coolant.
Originally Posted By: ponderosaTX
I agree that all first generation Japanese P-OAT coolants are essentialy the same and that all second generation Japanese P-OAT coolants are essentially the same. But my research suggests that the formulas may be a bit more complex than mechanicx describes.
Here is a description from a patent application of the first-generation Toyota P-OAT coolant:
"Fluid F is Toyota's Long Life red coolant, an organic acid based coolant containing benzoic acid, phosphoric acid, molybdate, azoles, 2-phosphono-butane-1,2,4-tricarboxylic acid, nitrate, dye, antifoam, and water soluble calcium and magnesium salts, but without water soluble polymer."
Benzoic acid is an organic acid. Second generation Japanese P-OAT coolants include other organic acid(s) -- perhaps sebacic acid -- but I have not yet found a precise description. ..............
Why is it that the phosphates in the super long life, 2nd generation Asian P-OAT coolants are not depleted after 2-3 years, as they are in a "conventional" Asian coolant?
I agree that all first generation Japanese P-OAT coolants are essentialy the same and that all second generation Japanese P-OAT coolants are essentially the same. But my research suggests that the formulas may be a bit more complex than mechanicx describes.
Here is a description from a patent application of the first-generation Toyota P-OAT coolant:
"Fluid F is Toyota's Long Life red coolant, an organic acid based coolant containing benzoic acid, phosphoric acid, molybdate, azoles, 2-phosphono-butane-1,2,4-tricarboxylic acid, nitrate, dye, antifoam, and water soluble calcium and magnesium salts, but without water soluble polymer."
Benzoic acid is an organic acid. Second generation Japanese P-OAT coolants include other organic acid(s) -- perhaps sebacic acid -- but I have not yet found a precise description. ..............
Why is it that the phosphates in the super long life, 2nd generation Asian P-OAT coolants are not depleted after 2-3 years, as they are in a "conventional" Asian coolant?
A better way of looking at is not that just the phosphate depleted (although that probably does happen) in the first generation "conventional" coolant, so much as the inhibitor pack in total got depleted. Whereas the newer antifreeze has a longer life organic acid inhibitor that depletes much slower maintaining corrosion inhibition even if the phosphate level is depleted, and preserves the phosphates as well. The real technical answer is pretty complicated chemistry but the long life OAT's protection layer probably does preserve the phosphates from being used up to produce a protective film. Another factor is the first generation coolant service life was probably under rated.
It's a similiar situation with silicated HOATS. Silicates depleted faster than probably any inhibitor, yet G-05 (fairly similar to conventional Asian but swapping silicates for phosphates) has a fairly long service life rating, and a better example G12++ which seems to be about the same formula as second generation Japanese coolant but swapping silicates for phosphates, has a long service life.
The inorganic acids silicates or phosphates are sort of a faster acting back up to the longer lived organic acids, and if they are depleted it doesn't prevent the coolant from inhibiting corrosion.
It's a similiar situation with silicated HOATS. Silicates depleted faster than probably any inhibitor, yet G-05 (fairly similar to conventional Asian but swapping silicates for phosphates) has a fairly long service life rating, and a better example G12++ which seems to be about the same formula as second generation Japanese coolant but swapping silicates for phosphates, has a long service life.
The inorganic acids silicates or phosphates are sort of a faster acting back up to the longer lived organic acids, and if they are depleted it doesn't prevent the coolant from inhibiting corrosion.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
.............It's a similiar situation with silicated HOATS. Silicates depleted faster than probably any inhibitor, yet G-05 (fairly similar to conventional Asian but swapping silicates for phosphates) has a fairly long service life rating, and a better example G12++ which seems to be about the same formula as second generation Japanese coolant but swapping silicates for phosphates, has a long service life..........
Interestingly, Mercedes is getting a 15 year service life out of their silicated coolant by using a silica packet in the overflow tank.
"..........Further, Mercedes-Benz is the only passen-
ger car/SUV manufacturer to build into the
cooling system a slow-release protection
device, that on some late-models permits a 15-
year, 143,000 or 150,000 mile coolant replace-
ment interval. The protection device -- a packet
of silica gel in the coolant reservoir -- is
designed to work with a Mercedes-Benz speci-
fication coolant, and not others........."
.............It's a similiar situation with silicated HOATS. Silicates depleted faster than probably any inhibitor, yet G-05 (fairly similar to conventional Asian but swapping silicates for phosphates) has a fairly long service life rating, and a better example G12++ which seems to be about the same formula as second generation Japanese coolant but swapping silicates for phosphates, has a long service life..........
Interestingly, Mercedes is getting a 15 year service life out of their silicated coolant by using a silica packet in the overflow tank.
"..........Further, Mercedes-Benz is the only passen-
ger car/SUV manufacturer to build into the
cooling system a slow-release protection
device, that on some late-models permits a 15-
year, 143,000 or 150,000 mile coolant replace-
ment interval. The protection device -- a packet
of silica gel in the coolant reservoir -- is
designed to work with a Mercedes-Benz speci-
fication coolant, and not others........."
That's true the silicates are fortifying the inhibitor protection but I doubt they could get to 15 years without the long lasting OAT formula. The time of 15 years is impressive but the milage isn't. 150k miles is about what Dexcool is rated at (300-600k in HDs with an additive extender)and then the Japanese coolant is rated 10 years/120k miles with out a packet. I personally think these 10-15 year rating are a little longer than ideal, kind of like lifetime ATF.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I personally think these 10-15 year rating are a little longer than ideal, kind of like lifetime ATF.
Definitely. Its not overly expensive to cut the interval in half for optimum protection. And, what I've seen in coolant filters, especially in factory fill, is pretty scary. Get a filter or change it out early.
Sad, but I've begun to see MANY WP failures on various makes, luckily while under warranty. Either quality of WP is down, or the coolant is grossly overrated, or the dirt/crud in your coolant is trashing the WP over time. Silicate additive is overly bashed everywhere.
Typically with coolants, most owners wait for 'failure' prior to doing anything. Then they flush and garden hose rinse and try every soap or chemical out there, and repeat, and pout... A little preventive maintenance goes a long way.
I personally think these 10-15 year rating are a little longer than ideal, kind of like lifetime ATF.
Definitely. Its not overly expensive to cut the interval in half for optimum protection. And, what I've seen in coolant filters, especially in factory fill, is pretty scary. Get a filter or change it out early.
Sad, but I've begun to see MANY WP failures on various makes, luckily while under warranty. Either quality of WP is down, or the coolant is grossly overrated, or the dirt/crud in your coolant is trashing the WP over time. Silicate additive is overly bashed everywhere.
Typically with coolants, most owners wait for 'failure' prior to doing anything. Then they flush and garden hose rinse and try every soap or chemical out there, and repeat, and pout... A little preventive maintenance goes a long way.
I agree on all points. OATS and non-silicated antifreeze is suppose to slightly increase waterpump life, at least in the laboratory and field testing, and maybe in the short term it might. But in the real world over the long term there is so much other gunk that has nothing to do with the use of silicates or not that seem to eat away at the waterpump. And maybe the seal designed is backed down in the belief that the no silicates formula will compensate. Anyway, bottom line is whether the coolant is technically still protecting, the long service intervals result in a lot of gunk in the system.
So sorry to bring this tread back to life, and high jack it, but is the final answer yes, they can be mixed? You see I have an 2010 Infiniti with the long life blue coolant. I had to buy some more as the reservoir was low. Then I looked at the coolant reservoir of my 2007 odyssey, which had the timing belt WP recently changed (last summer- and they told me they flushed the coolant too). The coolant in the odyssey is also blue.
Q1 : is this normal procedure to flush the coolant when doing a TB change?
Q2 : can I use the Nissan LL blue coolant to top off my Honda? It needs a few ounces, I suspect.
Thanks!
Q1 : is this normal procedure to flush the coolant when doing a TB change?
Q2 : can I use the Nissan LL blue coolant to top off my Honda? It needs a few ounces, I suspect.
Thanks!
Originally Posted By: Icecube
...Q1 : is this normal procedure to flush the coolant when doing a TB change?
Especially if the water pump was changed at the same time, which has become SOP with a Honda timing belt change, one would think the majority of the old AF was drained. Ideally it's a good time to get most of the old out and new in because it generally coincides with the first AF service interval.
Quote:
Q2 : can I use the Nissan LL blue coolant to top off my Honda? It needs a few ounces, I suspect.....
Yes, Honda Type2 and the newer Nissan LL blue premix are the same chemistry type. I'd have no problem using either interchangeably.
...Q1 : is this normal procedure to flush the coolant when doing a TB change?
Especially if the water pump was changed at the same time, which has become SOP with a Honda timing belt change, one would think the majority of the old AF was drained. Ideally it's a good time to get most of the old out and new in because it generally coincides with the first AF service interval.
Quote:
Q2 : can I use the Nissan LL blue coolant to top off my Honda? It needs a few ounces, I suspect.....
Yes, Honda Type2 and the newer Nissan LL blue premix are the same chemistry type. I'd have no problem using either interchangeably.
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