Which one would you prefer... The 5w20 is 55/9/3.3 (40*c/100*c/hths), and the 0w30 is 57/10.9/3.2 ... They are very close to each other so what are the differences? Which would you consider a bit "tougher" .. I have 5qts of the 5w20 waiting for my car but next time I think i'll be getting 0w30 .. Or even the 0w20
Redline 5w20 vs 0w30 almost identical specs
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Use the weight your OM calls for, both are excellent oils.
You dont need 0w/5w in FLA so no need to limit yourself to deep winter multigrades. The Mobil AFE spec has changed, its not 10.9 cSt at 100c in current guise:
SAE Grade 0W-30
Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.6
Viscosity, @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 56.7
Viscosity Index 180
Phosphorous (ASTM D4951) 0.08
Sulfated Ash, wt%, (ASTM D874) 1.0
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150ºC (ASTM D4683) 3.06
SAE Grade 0W-30
Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.6
Viscosity, @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 56.7
Viscosity Index 180
Phosphorous (ASTM D4951) 0.08
Sulfated Ash, wt%, (ASTM D874) 1.0
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150ºC (ASTM D4683) 3.06
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Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
The Mobil AFE spec has changed, its not 10.9 cSt at 100c in current guise.
I thought he was asking about Redline?
The Mobil AFE spec has changed, its not 10.9 cSt at 100c in current guise.
I thought he was asking about Redline?
Missed that! Sorry
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"Tougher" means what exactly? Resistance to breakdown? Higher film strength?
Use the viscosity called for in your OM - and check your oil pressure when the engine is hot...if you're >10 psi/1,000RPM, it's thick enough...if you're below that with the OM specified viscosity, it's because your engine bearings are worn...and you can go up in viscosity a bit to compensate...
Use the viscosity called for in your OM - and check your oil pressure when the engine is hot...if you're >10 psi/1,000RPM, it's thick enough...if you're below that with the OM specified viscosity, it's because your engine bearings are worn...and you can go up in viscosity a bit to compensate...
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Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
You dont need 0w/5w in FLA so no need to limit yourself to deep winter multigrades. The Mobil AFE spec has changed, its not 10.9 cSt at 100c in current guise:
SAE Grade 0W-30
Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.6
Viscosity, @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 56.7
Viscosity Index 180
Phosphorous (ASTM D4951) 0.08
Sulfated Ash, wt%, (ASTM D874) 1.0
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150ºC (ASTM D4683) 3.06
I argue the fact when people say "you don't need a 0 or a 5W you live in a warm climate" Keep in mind that the 0 or 5W in ANY climate will move the oil more quickly to help reduce wear at start up where most of the wear occurs. I live in one of the warmest climates in the USA and Dave at Redline recommended 5/30 for my car. When I asked too about the "5" he said just what I said above.
But if your car calls for a 20W and you use a 30W you may have some lifter tick noise, or something. The newer engines and their specs call for a 20W oil, where I don't think the 30W would hurt anything.
I have read and if I can find it, I will post with it later, that the 20W oil is just in the newer cars to save on MPG's and may cause more wear on an engine over the life of the engine vs a 30W. So its up to you.
Personally if your running a 5/20 Redline? Its going to be tough to beat that oil. It will keep your engine clean, and is a very tough oil. Sure the 0-30 is great too, but its nice to know that the Redline is indeed a true synthetic where as with other vendors you don't know what the heck your getting.
just my 10 cents.
Jeff
You dont need 0w/5w in FLA so no need to limit yourself to deep winter multigrades. The Mobil AFE spec has changed, its not 10.9 cSt at 100c in current guise:
SAE Grade 0W-30
Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.6
Viscosity, @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 56.7
Viscosity Index 180
Phosphorous (ASTM D4951) 0.08
Sulfated Ash, wt%, (ASTM D874) 1.0
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150ºC (ASTM D4683) 3.06
I argue the fact when people say "you don't need a 0 or a 5W you live in a warm climate" Keep in mind that the 0 or 5W in ANY climate will move the oil more quickly to help reduce wear at start up where most of the wear occurs. I live in one of the warmest climates in the USA and Dave at Redline recommended 5/30 for my car. When I asked too about the "5" he said just what I said above.
But if your car calls for a 20W and you use a 30W you may have some lifter tick noise, or something. The newer engines and their specs call for a 20W oil, where I don't think the 30W would hurt anything.
I have read and if I can find it, I will post with it later, that the 20W oil is just in the newer cars to save on MPG's and may cause more wear on an engine over the life of the engine vs a 30W. So its up to you.
Personally if your running a 5/20 Redline? Its going to be tough to beat that oil. It will keep your engine clean, and is a very tough oil. Sure the 0-30 is great too, but its nice to know that the Redline is indeed a true synthetic where as with other vendors you don't know what the heck your getting.
just my 10 cents.
Jeff
We know that the 5W-20 does NOT contain any added VI improvers, whereas the 0W-30 (as well as the 0W-40) DOES contain some VI improvers, according to Red Line's tech guru Dave.
Now, given the nature of the (at least half??) group 5/POE basestocks Red Line uses, which enables them to use the absolute minimum amount of VIIs (as well as the type of VIIs they use), does it mean anything at all (as far as shear stability goes) that they had to add those VII to get those viscosity range spreads??
Now, given the nature of the (at least half??) group 5/POE basestocks Red Line uses, which enables them to use the absolute minimum amount of VIIs (as well as the type of VIIs they use), does it mean anything at all (as far as shear stability goes) that they had to add those VII to get those viscosity range spreads??
I say use the 5w20. It will be more resistant to shear than the 0w30. Many on BITOG say that Redline's 5w20 is impervious to viscosity loss due to shear. If you look at the ratio of HTHS to KV100 for both oils, you will see that the 5w20 retains a higher fraction of its viscosity when going from low shear conditions at 100C to high shear conditions at 150C.
5w20: 3.3/9=.367
0w30: 3.2/10.9=.294
Redline's 5w-X oils can "play up a grade" because their HTHS numbers are equivalent to the next higher API grade. 5w20's HTHS number of 3.3 is safely above the minimum API requirement of 2.9 for a 30-weight. 5w30's HTHS of 3.8 is equivalent to most other brands' 40-weights. It is the HTHS viscosity of an oil that really defines how it will protect your engine under high heat and load conditions.
5w20: 3.3/9=.367
0w30: 3.2/10.9=.294
Redline's 5w-X oils can "play up a grade" because their HTHS numbers are equivalent to the next higher API grade. 5w20's HTHS number of 3.3 is safely above the minimum API requirement of 2.9 for a 30-weight. 5w30's HTHS of 3.8 is equivalent to most other brands' 40-weights. It is the HTHS viscosity of an oil that really defines how it will protect your engine under high heat and load conditions.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I say use the 5w20. It will be more resistant to shear than the 0w30. Many on BITOG say that Redline's 5w20 is impervious to viscosity loss due to shear. If you look at the ratio of HTHS to KV100 for both oils, you will see that the 5w20 retains a higher fraction of its viscosity when going from low shear conditions at 100C to high shear conditions at 150C.
5w20: 3.3/9=.367
0w30: 3.2/10.9=.294
Redline's 5w-X oils can "play up a grade" because their HTHS numbers are equivalent to the next higher API grade. 5w20's HTHS number of 3.3 is safely above the minimum API requirement of 2.9 for a 30-weight. 5w30's HTHS of 3.8 is equivalent to most other brands' 40-weights. It is the HTHS viscosity of an oil that really defines how it will protect your engine under high heat and load conditions.
Is it also true that the HTHS is the primary factor in HP / MPG? Or, with Redline, do you get "something for nothing" in that with the 5w30 you can get a 3.8 HTHS ~40wt "protection" with 30wt "performance"?
My application is a 2007 Honda S2000, which specs 10w30 from the factory (car was released in 1999, with no update to the recommended oil since, leading to speculation that Honda was afraid of "lesser" oils shearing down, thus only recommending the most shear-stable 30wt of the era, 10w30.)
I say use the 5w20. It will be more resistant to shear than the 0w30. Many on BITOG say that Redline's 5w20 is impervious to viscosity loss due to shear. If you look at the ratio of HTHS to KV100 for both oils, you will see that the 5w20 retains a higher fraction of its viscosity when going from low shear conditions at 100C to high shear conditions at 150C.
5w20: 3.3/9=.367
0w30: 3.2/10.9=.294
Redline's 5w-X oils can "play up a grade" because their HTHS numbers are equivalent to the next higher API grade. 5w20's HTHS number of 3.3 is safely above the minimum API requirement of 2.9 for a 30-weight. 5w30's HTHS of 3.8 is equivalent to most other brands' 40-weights. It is the HTHS viscosity of an oil that really defines how it will protect your engine under high heat and load conditions.
Is it also true that the HTHS is the primary factor in HP / MPG? Or, with Redline, do you get "something for nothing" in that with the 5w30 you can get a 3.8 HTHS ~40wt "protection" with 30wt "performance"?
My application is a 2007 Honda S2000, which specs 10w30 from the factory (car was released in 1999, with no update to the recommended oil since, leading to speculation that Honda was afraid of "lesser" oils shearing down, thus only recommending the most shear-stable 30wt of the era, 10w30.)
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I argue the fact when people say "you don't need a 0 or a 5W you live in a warm climate" Keep in mind that the 0 or 5W in ANY climate will move the oil more quickly to help reduce wear at start up where most of the wear occurs. I live in one of the warmest climates in the USA and Dave at Redline recommended 5/30 for my car. When I asked too about the "5" he said just what I said above.
Jeff
Funny you mention that, about a year or so ago I asked Dave the same question re: 0W20 vs 5W20, and he told me to use the 5W20 for my Jeep. I prefer the 0w-xx when possible.
I argue the fact when people say "you don't need a 0 or a 5W you live in a warm climate" Keep in mind that the 0 or 5W in ANY climate will move the oil more quickly to help reduce wear at start up where most of the wear occurs. I live in one of the warmest climates in the USA and Dave at Redline recommended 5/30 for my car. When I asked too about the "5" he said just what I said above.
Jeff
Funny you mention that, about a year or so ago I asked Dave the same question re: 0W20 vs 5W20, and he told me to use the 5W20 for my Jeep. I prefer the 0w-xx when possible.
I too agree with the above posters that Redline oil has been known to be more shear stable than other oils. Their Poly Ester base stocks are heat resistant even in jet engines.
Even though the 0w-30 has VII's, it hasn't shown to shear.
Originally Posted By: chicagophil
Is it also true that the HTHS is the primary factor in HP / MPG? Or, with Redline, do you get "something for nothing" in that with the 5w30 you can get a 3.8 HTHS ~40wt "protection" with 30wt "performance"?
My application is a 2007 Honda S2000, which specs 10w30 from the factory (car was released in 1999, with no update to the recommended oil since, leading to speculation that Honda was afraid of "lesser" oils shearing down, thus only recommending the most shear-stable 30wt of the era, 10w30.)
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a primary factor, but it is a minor factor. The higher HTHS of Redline oils does mean that they will cause more frictional drag in the engine when they are being sheared between moving surfaces. It's just the nature of viscosity: the higher it is, the more resistance to motion due to shearing the fluid, but also the thicker the oil film, and the better the protection against metal to metal contact. It's a balance that must be maintained. If someone were to go to extremes to improve fuel economy by using very low viscosity oil, he would reach the point where the film thickness would be low enough that localized metal to metal contact would occur, and engine friction would increase.
An advantage that I think can be had with an oil that has 40-weight HTHS and 30-weight KV is that it will flow more easily in the regions of the engine that do not subject it to high shear. This could help how quickly the oil drains back to the sump from the cylinder head, and make for more stable oil pressure during extreme maneuvers. Another advantage of low KV would be ability of the oil to transfer heat in the oil cooler.
Is it also true that the HTHS is the primary factor in HP / MPG? Or, with Redline, do you get "something for nothing" in that with the 5w30 you can get a 3.8 HTHS ~40wt "protection" with 30wt "performance"?
My application is a 2007 Honda S2000, which specs 10w30 from the factory (car was released in 1999, with no update to the recommended oil since, leading to speculation that Honda was afraid of "lesser" oils shearing down, thus only recommending the most shear-stable 30wt of the era, 10w30.)
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a primary factor, but it is a minor factor. The higher HTHS of Redline oils does mean that they will cause more frictional drag in the engine when they are being sheared between moving surfaces. It's just the nature of viscosity: the higher it is, the more resistance to motion due to shearing the fluid, but also the thicker the oil film, and the better the protection against metal to metal contact. It's a balance that must be maintained. If someone were to go to extremes to improve fuel economy by using very low viscosity oil, he would reach the point where the film thickness would be low enough that localized metal to metal contact would occur, and engine friction would increase.
An advantage that I think can be had with an oil that has 40-weight HTHS and 30-weight KV is that it will flow more easily in the regions of the engine that do not subject it to high shear. This could help how quickly the oil drains back to the sump from the cylinder head, and make for more stable oil pressure during extreme maneuvers. Another advantage of low KV would be ability of the oil to transfer heat in the oil cooler.
Personally,I'd run the 0w30 I've ran for 2-years now
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The difference in unpressurized flow at operating temperature
between oils with different KV100 spec's is truly insignificant and not measurable when the difference is as little as 1 to 3 cSt.
And yet actual racers have addressed oil return/starvation issues and reduced oil frothing in the cylinder head by moving from 20 weight to 10 weight oils in in high rpm (9500+ rpm) Modulars.
In the particular case I am thinking of I believe it was actually Red Line 20-weight race oil to Red Line 10-weight race oil.
The difference in unpressurized flow at operating temperature
between oils with different KV100 spec's is truly insignificant and not measurable when the difference is as little as 1 to 3 cSt.
And yet actual racers have addressed oil return/starvation issues and reduced oil frothing in the cylinder head by moving from 20 weight to 10 weight oils in in high rpm (9500+ rpm) Modulars.
In the particular case I am thinking of I believe it was actually Red Line 20-weight race oil to Red Line 10-weight race oil.
Ben, I recall you mentioning this before in another RL discussion, and IIRC it was a drag racing situation were the oil temp's are very low, often under 40C. In which case RL 20wt which has a KV40 of 42cSt would definitely be way thicker than optimum particularly at high rev's. RL's 10wt with it's KV40 of 27cSt would be a major improvement in flow at those cool temps although still borderline I would think; 27cSt is the viscosity of a 70wt oil at 100C. 5wt race oil with it's KV40 of 21cSt and even 2wt race KV40 11cSt are popular in drag racing and as a NASCAR qualifying oil where oil temps' don't get much above 170F.
But this really is a diversion from the main point; namely, that for any given HTHS viscosity an oil will have a narrow range of possible kinematic 100C values depending on the oil's chemistry and VII content. This viscosity range which can be as high as 3 or 4cSt with some VII free oils like RL, depending on the grade, and is really of no consequence in terms of an oil's flow at high 100 degree operating temps where kinematic values are already very low.
But this really is a diversion from the main point; namely, that for any given HTHS viscosity an oil will have a narrow range of possible kinematic 100C values depending on the oil's chemistry and VII content. This viscosity range which can be as high as 3 or 4cSt with some VII free oils like RL, depending on the grade, and is really of no consequence in terms of an oil's flow at high 100 degree operating temps where kinematic values are already very low.
so, for a car that originally spec'd 10w30 (in '99), with the manufacturer knowing many owners would use dino, it seems either Redline's 5w20 or 0w30 would be a better fit, given the 3.2-3.3 HTHS, than the 3.8 of the 5w30 and 10w30.
regarding this line:
Quote:
RL 5W-20 is heavier than RL's 0W-30 at all temperatures for two reasons; it has a higher HTHS of 3.3cP vs 3.2cP and a very much lower VI of only 145 vs 183 for RL's 0W-30
how significant is each tenth in cP? 3.3 vs 3.2 (vs 3.8)?
what is the implication of the large VI difference?
regarding this line:
Quote:
RL 5W-20 is heavier than RL's 0W-30 at all temperatures for two reasons; it has a higher HTHS of 3.3cP vs 3.2cP and a very much lower VI of only 145 vs 183 for RL's 0W-30
how significant is each tenth in cP? 3.3 vs 3.2 (vs 3.8)?
what is the implication of the large VI difference?
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Ben, I recall you mentioning this before in another RL discussion, and IIRC it was a drag racing situation were the oil temp's are very low, often under 40C.
It was on a 2300+ HP 4.6 4V seeing 40+ lbs of turbocharged boost spinning 10,000 rpm. The timing chain was acting as an oil escalator causing oil to pile up in the right cylinder head. This issue was actually observed on the engine dyno, IIRC.
Ben, I recall you mentioning this before in another RL discussion, and IIRC it was a drag racing situation were the oil temp's are very low, often under 40C.
It was on a 2300+ HP 4.6 4V seeing 40+ lbs of turbocharged boost spinning 10,000 rpm. The timing chain was acting as an oil escalator causing oil to pile up in the right cylinder head. This issue was actually observed on the engine dyno, IIRC.
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