Car Connection - Why Temp Gauges Are Dissappearing

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gpshumway

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From The Car Connection ( Why Does My New Car Have No Temp Gauge)

I'm sure I'll get a variety of opinions on the disappearance of temp gauges, but the piece of that article which really caught my attention was regarding 20wt oil:

"And with the thinner oils being introduced this year and over the next several model years—allowing better fuel economy and good high-heat protection—they counterintuitively place engines under higher stress in cold starts."

This is indeed counter-intuitive to me and I'm sure many others here. I posted a comment and I'm hoping Mr. Halvorson will respond, but does anybody here have an idea what he's referring to?

For the record I'm not sad to see the nearly useless temperature gauges in most cars replaced with an idiot light. The gauge gave one a false sense of information any way, it might as well be an idiot light which takes up less space.
 
Interesting. Neither of our two family BMW's (a 323i and an M3, both 2008) has a water temp gauge. The M3 has an oil temp gauge and the 323i has nothing. According to the manual, if the engine gets too hot, the ECU reduces power and puts up a message on the display panel in the middle of the instrument cluster. If it's not too hot, well, it's not too hot and everything is fine, so why bother with a needle to look at?
 
Originally Posted By: jaj
Interesting. Neither of our two family BMW's (a 323i and an M3, both 2008) has a water temp gauge. The M3 has an oil temp gauge and the 323i has nothing. According to the manual, if the engine gets too hot, the ECU reduces power and puts up a message on the display panel in the middle of the instrument cluster. If it's not too hot, well, it's not too hot and everything is fine, so why bother with a needle to look at?


I think the OP is questioning the author's POV that thinner oils put the engine under more stress when cold than thicker oils. Personally I think just the opposite is true.
 
So I guess we would wait until we see signs of overheating then? Without it, I sense more breakdowns...
 
He also called 0w20 "zero weight" oil
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Originally Posted By: hate2work
I think the OP is questioning the author's POV that thinner oils put the engine under more stress when cold than thicker oils. Personally I think just the opposite is true.


You are correct - I missed that. Thinner pumps easier, but maybe the point is that people don't have anything to remind them that the engine's cold and shouldn't be driven at high rpm or full throttle. That lack of information could lead to more stress on the engine. Otherwise it's hard (for me) to imagine how lower viscosity oil could create more stress.
 
Simple answer to your question...Mr. Halvorson is an idiot. Another ill informed person spreading poor information. 0W/20 oil would not increase stress on engines in cold climates.
 
Well, to be fair, he said cold start, not cold climates.

My guess is he's referring to the lower film strength of a light oil in the short period before pressure reaches the main bearings. If this were the case though, the real concern would be hot start.

Keep the informed responses coming.
 
Removing the coolant temperature gauge is completely stupid design for the average car owner IMO. By the time you see signs of overheating or a hot idiot light has come on damage to gaskets or worse has already been done. Older cars with big iron engines and steel shim gaskets with low power density might've gotten away with no temp gauge and boiling over, but small aluminum engines with polymer gasket don't. The temp gauge is necessary to see the upward trend of temperature even if there is also an overheat light and a low coolant light. The temperature gauge is one of the most useful and important gauges.
 
Originally Posted By: gpshumway

"And with the thinner oils being introduced this year and over the next several model years—allowing better fuel economy and good high-heat protection—they counterintuitively place engines under higher stress in cold starts."


He seems to imply that a lighter oil offers better protection than a thicker oil under the same high heat conditions. While a thinner oil might offer adequate protection for an engine that's designed for it, I don't understand how it could offer better protection than a thicker oil under the same high heat conditions. That whole paragraph seems counter intuitive.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Removing the coolant temperature gauge is completely stupid design for the average car owner IMO. By the time you see signs of overheating or a hot idiot light has come on damage to gaskets or worse has already been done. Older cars with big iron engines and steel shim gaskets with low power density might've gotten away with no temp gauge and boiling over, but small aluminum engines with polymer gasket don't. The temp gauge is necessary to see the upward trend of temperature even if there is also an overheat light and a low coolant light. The temperature gauge is one of the most useful and important gauges.



I agree completely. The whole idea of a gauge is to alert you to changes occurring EARLY enough to prevent damage to your car. Even with the "dead" temp gauges, you will see different behavior of the gauge. I scan all my gauges several times when driving and know my vehicle's normal characteristics. Problem is - the average driver never looks at them and needs the idiot light...because, well, they're idiots!
 
I'm a gauge-watcher myself. I'm always looking at all the gauges as I drive. I've never yet owned a car that didn't have a temperature gauge. I'm not sure I'd buy one that didn't, just because I'm that stubborn.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Removing the coolant temperature gauge is completely stupid design for the average car owner IMO. By the time you see signs of overheating or a hot idiot light has come on damage to gaskets or worse has already been done. Older cars with big iron engines and steel shim gaskets with low power density might've gotten away with no temp gauge and boiling over, but small aluminum engines with polymer gasket don't. The temp gauge is necessary to see the upward trend of temperature even if there is also an overheat light and a low coolant light. The temperature gauge is one of the most useful and important gauges.

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I agree completely. The whole idea of a gauge is to alert you to changes occurring EARLY enough to prevent damage to your car. Even with the "dead" temp gauges, you will see different behavior of the gauge. I scan all my gauges several times when driving and know my vehicle's normal characteristics. Problem is - the average driver never looks at them and needs the idiot light...because, well, they're idiots!

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I'm a gauge-watcher myself. I'm always looking at all the gauges as I drive. I've never yet owned a car that didn't have a temperature gauge. I'm not sure I'd buy one that didn't, just because I'm that stubborn.

I'd agree with you guys if modern cars had real gauges, but they dont, they have devices which look like gauges but behave like idiot lights. That is to say they read "normal" through a wide range of temperatures, showing almost no needle movement. Here's a couple of examples off the top of my head, but most modern cars behave this way. I'd go so far as to say if your gauge just has ranges for "cold", "normal" and "hot", that it's really an idiot light. Even cars with temperature markings on the "gauge" like the VW TDI mentioned below don't have real gauges. I prefer an idiot light to an idiot gauge, because the abrupt lighting of the light is more likely to catch my attention than the subtle movement of an indicator needle. A real gauge would be best, but the OEMs don't give us that option.

From the Gauge FAQ on NASIOC:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1193843

Originally Posted By: Unabomber
Coolant Temperature: Yes, there is an OEM idiot gauge for this function, but the OEM unit is designed to be heavily dampened which leads to sluggish movement and slow response. They also only supply a general indication. This means that when you notice you are hot, you have no idea exactly how hot your car is or how long it took to get to that state. Aftermarket units tell you the exact temperature and many gauges feature warning lights or buzzers set by the end user as a true warning.


From Oilhammer (VW nut and ASE Master Tech) on TDI Club:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=305737

Originally Posted By: Oilhammer
These cars do not have 'real' gauges. That gauge will show 190 anywhere from 155 to 210 or so.
 
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
I'd agree with you guys if modern cars had real gauges, but they dont, they have devices which look like gauges but behave like idiot lights. That is to say they read "normal" through a wide range of temperatures, showing almost no needle movement. [snip] I prefer an idiot light to an idiot gauge, because the abrupt lighting of the light is more likely to catch my attention than the subtle movement of an indicator needle. A real gauge would be best, but the OEMs don't give us that option.


Well, yes and no. Most gauges, though they are damped, are programmed to start their upward movement very close to the point at which the cooling fan is designed to come on. This was apparent on my two ChryCo minivans and my former Cadillacs. If you'd sit with the engine idling long enough, you'd see the gauge start to creep up from its normal position just less than halfway to right at halfway, then the fans would kick on and a minute or two later, the gauge would ease back down to where it normally rests.

It's a subtle movement, to be sure. But it lets me know a few things:

1) The gauge really is working and I can trust it.
2) The cooling system really is working, and the fans are operating.
3) If the gauge continues to climb past halfway, something's not normal and may need checking out.

In particular, #3 occurs much sooner in the process if you have a gauge (even a "dumb" one) vs. if you just have a light. Often times, the light isn't programmed to come on unless the vehicle is at the point where you need to pull over and shut it off, now. I prefer to have a little more warning than that. We all know the gauges are damped, but it still offer more feedback than a binary light.
 
Additionally, the Cadillacs had the very nice Driver Information Center, and coolant temp was an option. So in addition to the gauge, I could also have a digital display of the actual number. "Normal" on the gauge was from about 190*F to around 225*F. At about 225*F, the gauge would start to climb, and at about 228*F or 230*F, the fans would engage (assuming no A/C use obviously) and once the temperature fell back down to around 222*F, the gauge would go back down to normal. So yes, there was that window from 190*F to 225*F where the gauge would read that same. And that's fine...no problem. But when the coolant temperature climbed above the normal operating window...that's when I'd like to know about it.

None of my current cars have the Cadillac's DIC, but a ScanGauge allows me to "map" the temperature gauge nonetheless, and know which gauge positions represent which ranges of coolant temps.
 
The reduction in info provided to the driver in newer cars annoys me. Even if the gauge movements are damped a bit, it's still preferable to a "you're screwed" notification from an idiot light. My Jeep has real oil pressure and coolant temp gauges. If it didn't, I would have added both. As is, I'm planning on adding oil and tranny temp gauges, which it lacks.
 
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
The reduction in info provided to the driver in newer cars annoys me. Even if the gauge movements are damped a bit, it's still preferable to a "you're screwed" notification from an idiot light. My Jeep has real oil pressure and coolant temp gauges. If it didn't, I would have added both. As is, I'm planning on adding oil and tranny temp gauges, which it lacks.

My old Cherokee had real temp, oil pressure, and charge system guages and I miss that. The temp guage saved me on one occaision when the radiator blew a pinhole on the interstate and when I saw the temp slowly rising, I knew something was up. I kept paying attention to it and when I saw it really start to rise I immediately pulled over, discovered the problem and had it towed.

As far as the dummy guages, yes they're worthless. The dampened guages are less useful but still worthwile. I can watch mine rise while idling at a stoplight or drive through in the summer in my Buick. I also use it as an indicator during the winter of when its time to turn the heater up to full blast.

My wife is always saying its freezing crank up the heat. I always tell her, look the temp gage hasn't moved its still on cold. I can turn on the heat but its just going to blow cold air on you.
 
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