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#2177273 - 02/21/11 11:31 AM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: 4ever4d]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10886
Loc: The Motor City
I'll bet the "black paint" is phos and oil.

I've looked at other plugs and find the threads are coated with nickel.

Dacromet (at least the one coating I looked at) is a mixture of pure aluminum metal flakes and pure zinc metal flakes, both around 20 micron in size, in an organic carrier that dries like paint.

Antiseize is typically pure metal flakes, also around 20 micron in size, in an organic carrier. The organic carrier doesn't dry and is probably some type of oil. The metal flakes are typically aluminum, copper, or nickel, depending on the type of antiseize you buy.

There are other antiseizes (e.g., carbon, teflon, MoS2, lead, etc.), but that's for another discussion.

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#2177773 - 02/21/11 08:49 PM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: 4ever4d]
onion Offline


Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 2097
Loc: kansastan
Kestas- I reckon you're as qualified to answer this question as anybody that we're going to find... seeings how you work directly with the products in question.

We all know that lots of wheel studs these days have a Dacromet coating- but there are others. On MVA's Sienna, for example, what do you think the black coating is? Same black coating as this spark plug... or something else?
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#2178101 - 02/22/11 08:38 AM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: 4ever4d]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10886
Loc: The Motor City
I can't speak for the Sienna specifically, but I've seen some wheel studs specified for phos and oil (GM and aftermarket applications). These studs look black and shiny when new. Probably the same as the spark plug you described.

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#2178567 - 02/22/11 03:55 PM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: 4ever4d]
onion Offline


Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 2097
Loc: kansastan
That's what I suspected, but I'm not really qualified to say.

For what it's worth, the k-factor for "neversieze paste" is .17, whereas the k-factor for phosphate & oil is .18. But it's .13 for copper antiseize.



I think the numbers are pretty conclusive. For MOST coatings, including those most commonly used on wheel studs, the k-factor is in the .15-.22 range. Notable exceptions include a few zinc coatings. Even uncoated steel is within this range. Therefore:

If the following is true:

The wheel studs are not ZINC coated
Antiseize is applied to the threads only
Copper-based antiseize is avoided
Factory torque specifications are used


Then I see very little potential for problems from using antiseize on wheel studs.

numbers available here:

http //www.porteousfastener.com/pfconline/PDF/Tightening%20-%20Bulletin-Fastener%20Tightening%20Can%20Be%20Determined%20by%20Several%20Methods%20Individual%20Copy[1].pdf
_________________________
The invisible and the imaginary look exactly the same.

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#2178579 - 02/22/11 04:10 PM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: 4ever4d]
onion Offline


Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 2097
Loc: kansastan
That link is giving me trouble due to those included brackets ] [ interacting with this site's UBB setup. Remove the space after the http and it will work.

Here's the copied/pasted info in an unformatted and rather user-unfriendly form:

K” factors vary from .1 (very slippery) to .4 (very
tacky). Below is a list of K factors for currently used fastener finishes.
Torque conversions:
Foot pounds = inch pounds times .0833
Nm = inch pounds times .113
Fastener Finish K Factors
As received steel 0.18 GEOBLACK® 147 0.15 Magni 575 0.13
Black Oxide 0.20 GEOBLACK® ML 0.16 Magni 590 0.11
Cadmium plated nuts and bolts 0.19 GEOMET® 500 A 0.17 Magni 591 0.11
Copper based antiseize 0.13 GEOMET® 500 B 0.17 Magni 594 0.12
DACROBLACK® 107 0.14 GEOMET® 720 L 0.15 Never-Seize Paste 0.17
DACROBLACK® 127 0.15 GEOMET® 720 ML 0.17 Phosphate & Oil 0.18
DACROMET® 500 A 0.19 GEOMET® L 0.15 Plain 0.20
DACROMET® 500 B 0.19 GEOMET® ML 0.17 Rusty (exposed outdoors 2 wks) 0.39
DACROMET® L 0.15 GEOMET® P 0.20
SermaGard (Aluminum particles in a ceramic binder)
basecoat + wax
0.23
DACROMET® ML 0.17 GEOMET® XL 0.09 Xylan 5230 ( PTFE) 0.12
DACROMET® P 0.20 Graphite coatings 0.19 Zinc & Black (cr6) 0.22
DACROMET® XL 0.09
Hot dip galvanized - clean
and dry
0.23 Zinc & Clear (cr6) 0.22
Delta-Protekt KL 100 base coat with
Delta VH 301 topcoat
0.17 Machine Oil 0.21 Zinc & Clear (cr6) & Waxed Locknut 0.18
Delta-Protekt KL 100 base coat with
Delta VH 302 topcoat
0.19 Magni 510 0.15 Zinc & Olive (cr6) 0.22
Delta-Protekt KL 100 base coat with
Delta-Seal
0.23 Magni 5111 0.15 Zinc & Yellow (cr6) 0.22
Delta-Protekt KL 100 base coat with
Delta-Seal GZ
0.18 Magni 515 0.15 Zinc (mechanical) & Clear (cr6) 0.35
GEOBLACK® 117 0.20 Magni 560 0.13 Zinc-Cobalt electroplated finish 0.30
GEOBLACK® 137 0.17 Magni 565 0.13 Zinc-Nickel electroplated finish 0.30
Note: Values determined using DIN 946.
_________________________
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#2178715 - 02/22/11 06:53 PM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: 4ever4d]
ltslimjim Offline


Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 5210
Loc: FreelanceRoverRogerRabbit
Not sure if I had this on my lugs or not, I had new tires rotated for free by the same place(Kauffman tire) recently and when I went to lift the car and re-grease the front ball joints I noticed this dark gray/sticky material all over the lugs. Is that anti-seize?
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#2178788 - 02/22/11 07:56 PM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: onion]
mva Offline


Registered: 02/09/08
Posts: 756
Loc: Northern BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: onion

Your value of K=.3 seems unreasonably high. Depends on where you look up k-values, but there's quite a bit of variation depending on where you get your numbers.


There are many different sources of K factors. Here is another list comparing clean bolts to lubricated with K factor as high as 0.50 for plain clean unlubricated bolts:

http://www.titanti.com/pdf/KFACTOR.pdf

It is possible that wheel studs have a K factor closer to 0.2 or less which would explain why we don't see wheels flying off vehicles on a regular basis despite the use of never-seize on many.


Edited by mva (02/22/11 08:01 PM)
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2000 Toyota Sienna 345,000 km QS Defy 5W30
2001 BMW 320i 191,700 km PP 5W30
2008 Civic 87,000 km M1 0W20

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#2178830 - 02/22/11 08:38 PM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: 4ever4d]
onion Offline


Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 2097
Loc: kansastan
Yeah, k-values that I've seen are all over the place depending on where you get your info. That chart is interesting though because some of the values account for mating surface conditions.
_________________________
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#2181366 - 02/25/11 10:47 AM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: 4ever4d]
Drew2000 Offline


Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 974
Loc: Long Island, NY
Heck, stubborn lug nuts are only part of the problem. When I went to rotate the tires on my Tribute, the aluminum wheels were corroded to the iron brake rotors. Even with the nuts backed off, I had to move the car and slam on the brakes a half-dozen times to break the wheels free. Now I wipe a -very, very thin- coating of zinc anti-seize to the wheel faces where they contact the rotor. No more problems with corrosion.

FWIW, my anti-seize of choice is zinc-based, it's especially good in preventing galvanic corrosion between aluminum and ferrous fasteners- very common on motorcycles.

http://www.kraftindustrialsupply.com/My%20Scans/ZINCAS-EN.pdf
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11 Mustang GT
06 Tribute
05 Honda ST1300
03 Yamaha FZ1
93 Regal
91 Explorer
87 F250 6.9l Diesel
85 Yamaha FJ1100
83 Honda Nighthawk 650


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#2181428 - 02/25/11 11:53 AM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: Drew2000]
Jim 5 Offline


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 4009
Loc: Calgary Canada
Originally Posted By: Drew2000
Heck, stubborn lug nuts are only part of the problem. When I went to rotate the tires on my Tribute, the aluminum wheels were corroded to the iron brake rotors. Even with the nuts backed off, I had to move the car and slam on the brakes a half-dozen times to break the wheels free. Now I wipe a -very, very thin- coating of zinc anti-seize to the wheel faces where they contact the rotor. No more problems with corrosion.

FWIW, my anti-seize of choice is zinc-based, it's especially good in preventing galvanic corrosion between aluminum and ferrous fasteners- very common on motorcycles.

http://www.kraftindustrialsupply.com/My%20Scans/ZINCAS-EN.pdf


I had this same exact problem with the same solution on one of my cars. I use the permatex silver antiseize on my lug nuts and on the rotor/wheel contact patch, and that completely solved the problem.
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07.5 GMC Sierra 2500HD LMM Rotella 15w-40
09 Odyssey EX-L CT 5w-20
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08 Pitster Pro X4 Rt 15w-40

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#2186999 - 03/02/11 05:21 PM Re: Anti-seize On Lugnuts? [Re: 4ever4d]
xBa380 Offline


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 773
Loc: Cleveland
I use antiseize on my lug nuts and wheel hub prior to reinstalling the wheel. I reduce the torque by about 10-15% when putting the wheel back on, and never have had a nut come loose on me. I check my wheels every few weeks and they do not budge.

It makes for removing them so much easier, as well. No longer do they make terrible grinding and popping noises when loosening the nut.

But now I have an impact, so I do not notice as much. But I still do lube them.

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