Audi TT Oil Analysis

Pablo · May 19, 2003

You may want to post the numbers here, because links to other BB's are verboten...interesting dialog, ntl. Those guys need BiTOG.

I suspect the insoluble crud is turbo coke - but as to why M1 would coke so bad is interesting....and indeed why didn't the filter catch it? Don't suppose you have that filter for post mortem examination, eh?

vvk · May 19, 2003

Audi TT with 180 hp engine requires oil with VW 503.01 approval. Mobil 1 5W-30 does not have this approval. Simply put, it is the wrong oil for this engine

You report does not look too good. Wear metals are high, viscosity low. I would strongly advise that you reconsider your oil choice.

The following is the list of oils that have the proper VW 503.01 approval:

Addinol Extra light MV 038 SAE 0W-30
Agip 7006 SAE 0W-40
Aral SuperTronic SAE 0W-40
BP Visco 7000 Special SAE 0W-30
Castrol Formula SLX SAE 0W-30
Castrol Formula SLX Turbo Diesel SAE 0W-30
DEA Ultec Syn-T SAE 0W-30
Elf Excellium LDX SAE 0W-30
Esso Ultron Fuel Economy SAE 0W-30
Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL SAE 0W-30
Ginouves York 748 SAE 0W-30
Huiles Labo RC SAE 0W-30
Kuwait Petroleum Q8 Formula Special SAE 0W-30
Liqui Moly Synthoil Longtime SAE 0W-30
Meguin Megol Motorenöl Super Leichtlauf Multisynth SAE 0W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40
Motul 6100 LL-01 SAE 0W-30
Öl-Brack Quaker State Synquest SAE 0W-30
Panolin Racing Synth DC SAE 0W-30
Pentosin Pentospeed 0W30VS SAE 0W-30
Petrogal Galp Formula Racing 50301 SAE 0W-30
Shell Helix Ultra SAE 5W-30
SRS Wintershall Viva 1 ecosynth SAE 0W-40
Teboil Diamond Plus SAE 0W-30
Texaco Havoline Synthetic DS SAE 0W-30
Unil Opal Opaljet 32 S SAE 0W-30
Valvoline Synpower MXL SAE 0W-30
Vaps Vapsoil 50301 SAE 0W-30
Vaps Vapsoil Syn 030 SAE 0W-30
Veedol Syntron SAE 0W-30

Out of these, only Mobil 1 0W-40 is widely available in the United States. It is sold at AutoZone and WalMarts around the country. Castrol Formula SLX 0-30 is also available regionally in the US and Canada. Toronto WalMarts carry this oil as well as some US AutoZone stores. Motul 6100 should be available mail order and Valvoline MXL 0W-30 should be available through NAPA stores via special order only.

Please refer to this web site for reference:

http://www.autoservicepraxis.de/six...uptnavigation_as&_topnavi=32457&_zielcb=32470

Quattro Pete · May 19, 2003

If I'm not mistaken, the owner's manual of that car only specifies that the oil be SJ-rated or ACEA A3-rated, 0w-30 or 5w-30. The mineral oil that most Audi dealerships use during normally scheduled free maintenance visits also does not meet the VW 503.01 approval.

There are quite a few UOA results of M1 5w-30 used in Audi/VW 1.8T engine (170hp) here on Bob's site (including mine), and they look pretty good.

As far as the insolubles in Pgh TT's sample, I'd also think it's because of the oil coking in the turbo cooling lines. If you don't take good care of your turbo (proper warm up and cool down procedures), this is exactly what's going to happen, even with synthetic oil.

You could switch to M1 0w-40 if it makes you feel better about it meeting the VW 503.01 specs, but from the UOAs that we've seen here, it doesn't really provide much benefit over M1 5w-30.

As far as the filter, Audi OEM filters (made by Mann/Mahle) are actually quite good and it takes a lot of pressure to put them in bypass mode. So, I doubt it's the filter, unless you just happened to get a bad one this one time.

turbochem · May 20, 2003

Here are some qoutes from the Audi site concerning oil.....

quote:

Im not an Oil expert

That would explain many of your later qoutes....

quote:

I change it every 2500/3000 miles. I dont care if GOD said to change it every 5000miles.

What? Now, if God said it....c'mon....God is an oil expert....He invented oil!!!

quote:

It just doesnt make sense, not matter what oil your using.

How so?

If you were on Bob's site....you'd have some splaining to do

!! We wouldn't let you get away with that one......

quote:

my 2centz.

We get what we pay for........

I'm only kidding

....you can't blame those who are unBobjucated......if you change your oil at 3000, your car will be fine....but so will the oil, probably for a couple of thousand miles...

Ever since I've been on this site, when I see car enthusiast boards talk about oil, I cringe

........they're almost as bad as mechanics!!

Eiron · May 20, 2003

Pgh TT,
From the discussion here & over at audiworld, it sounds like the TT doesn't have a water-cooled turbo? And are turbo-timers routinely recommended on these engines? (I'm finding both of these situations hard to believe for a modern, factory-built turbocharged engine.) Also, Quattro Pete has said these engines only hold 3.7 qts of oil to begin with, so being down "only" 1/2 qt takes away 13%-14% of circulating oil & really increases the stress on the remaining 3.2 qts. For comparison, this is like being almost a full qt low on a "standard" American car's 6.5 qt sump. If it were my car, I'd try to keep it as close to the "full" mark as possible. At the very least, I'd suggest checking/topping-up at the 5k mi point. (You could simply dump in the leftover 0.3 qt from the change.)

I wouldn't say we have a lot of 1.8T M1 5W-30 UOAs, but we do have a couple & neither of them show as much magnesium as your UOA does. Can anyone tell us where all that magnesium's coming from? From your comments, it sounds like you're giving the oil to the techs at the dealer & letting them put it in? The other components look OK for used M1, but none of the M1 oils start out with this much mag.

For a turbo engine I'd look for an oil with a better HT/HS rating than what the M1 30 wts have. Or, if you want to continue with this oil, I'd substitute 1 qt of M1 15W-50 to mix in with the 5W-30.

Quattro Pete · May 20, 2003

Greg,

AFAIK, the turbo is water-cooled, however, I don't believe there is an after-run cooling pump, so once you turn off the engine, everything stops.

As far as turbo timer, it's definitely a good idea if you're not willing to take it easy for the last few miles after a spirited run or not willing to let the engine idle for a few minutes aftewards.

The 1.8T engine in a TT holds 4.8 quarts of oil, so about a quart more than in my A4.

As far as magnesium, it's probably leftover additive from M1 TriSyn. Maybe Pgh TT can confirm if he used that before the SuperSyn. My first analysis of SuperSyn, after I switched from TriSyn, showed almost 200ppm of magnesium as well.

Pgh TT · May 20, 2003

The previous oil change used M1, but I am not sure which it was. Oil would have been purchased in 10/01.

Pgh TT · May 20, 2003

I have about 20K on my TT ('01 180C). I have followed the Audi recomendations on oil change frequency (5K, 10K, 20K) except that I have used Mobil 1 (5W-30) for every change. I let Audi use their OEM filter.

I was a little concerned about not changing for 10K miles so I had the oil analyzed by Blackstone. I did not have to add any oil during between 10 and 20K miles; car only used about 1/2 guart. I took a sample of the oil the day before I took the car in for its 20K service / oil change. The results of the analysis are shown in the following link.

http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/879723.phtml

One problem was uncovered - the "insolubles" were high (2.0%) compared with desired values (0.6%). They say that the involubles were due to oil oxidation due to heat / use; they suspect that the filter may have been bypassing.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this result. I thought that synthetic oil was susposed to oxidize much less than regular oil. Did the filter bypass because too many insoubles were generated? I was wondering if another filter make might be better - have more capacity. I also have heard of people using oversized filters with synthetic oil to extend oil changes. Any suggestions on better / larger filters?

Terry Schulz
Pgh PA area
2001 180TTC (Silver/Ebony)

Tyrolkid · May 20, 2003

Here is some info on oversize filters for VW 1.8T motors:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=691260

vvk · May 20, 2003

quote:

Here is some info on oversize filters for VW 1.8T motors:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=691260

Just FYI, a bigger filter canister does not necessarily mean a bigger filter element. For example:

http://www.twocreeks.net/toby/napa.shtml

vs.

http://www.twocreeks.net/toby/honda.shtml

Filter cases are about the same size, while filter elements are vastly different.

I would use nothing but MANN filters on an Audi, since they are:

1. Available
2. Excellent quality
3. Cheap!

Also, I think it is wrong to assume that a 1.8T in an A4 has the same oil requirements as a 1.8T in a TT. VW change their oil standards pretty often and you really can't go by your intuition on this. They even change standards year to year. For example, 503.00 can be used ONLY in vehicles made after 1999.

Eiron · May 20, 2003

Pete,

Wow! That's cool! Same engine, but they bump up the oil capacity by 30%?! Any idea if the method they use (larger oil cooler? different sump?) is adaptable to the A4's engine? Good call on the changeover from TS to SS. So, any idea how much old oil is left in circulation? (Based on the amount of magnesium left in this sample, it looks like about a liter?) Could this be why the larger oil capacity actually tests worse than the smaller one? If he's still got close to a qt of original factory oil in this sample, could it be causing the high insolubles? If your A4 is set up the same way (retaining about a qt of old oil), do you have any other thoughts about why the report is worse for the same engine & oil with a 30% larger oil capacity? Do they run a different turbo on the TT than they do on the A4?

I still find it hard to believe a timer is necessary on a modern water-cooled turbo. Unless you're racing & simply shutting the car off after each run, I don't see how the turbo can retain that much heat from normal operation. Like you say, a bit of "non-spirited" driving is all it takes to quickly cool down a water-cooled turbo.

[ May 21, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Greg Netzner ]

Eiron · May 20, 2003

Pete,

Really? 2000ppm? I can't find any VOAs of 5W-30 TS, but all the UOAs of it show about 1/4 to 1/2 that amount. Assuming Phg TT had the same "used" level of mag in his TS, that would mean quite a bit more than 10% old oil would be left in the system.

I agree with you that oil coking sounds like the most plausible reason for his insolubles, but if the engineers took the trouble to increase the oil capacity 30% for the same HP output, then I'd expect the oil to be less stressed than in an A4. That's why I'm wondering about "retained" oil capacity for this engine.

How did you get your hot Volvo photo to show up? I tried that in my earlier post with a Saab turbo pic, but all I got was this goofy "X-ed Box".

Is it because it's an html link & not a jpg link? Here it is as a web page link. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing the Saab pic is of the earlier oil-cooled configuration. You can see the hole for the missing drive shaft, so they're obviously running the engine for an extended period just to get the red-hot photo. Once Saab went to water-cooled, they dropped all recommendations for any special "cool down" procedures. Simply driving normally thru your neighborhood was more than enough to return the turbo to non-super-heated condition.

(Hey! You forgot to mention the caption for your photo: "And just for fun, here's what happen to the turbo housing when you run a T5 at WFO for 24 hours:" I'd say that's a bit more than what you call "a spirited run"!)

[ May 21, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Greg Netzner ]

Quattro Pete · May 20, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Greg Netzner:
Pete,

Really? 2000ppm? I can't find any VOAs of 5W-30 TS, but all the UOAs of it show about 1/4 to 1/2 that amount.

Yeah, actually, I was looking at someone's UOAs that were just posted for 10w-30 TriSyn which showed over 1800 ppm. Maybe 5w-30 has less, but check out Terry's response in this thread:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000069

quote:

How did you get your hot Volvo photo to show up? I tried that in my earlier post with a Saab turbo pic, but all I got was this goofy "X-ed Box".

Yes, you are pasting a link to an html file instead of a link to a jpg file after clicking the "IMAGE" button. Not gonna work. Instead, you need to right-click on the picture, select "Properties", then copy the address URL that appears and paste that instead.

quote:

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing the Saab pic (as well as your Volvo pic) is of the earlier oil-cooled configuration. Once Saab went to water-cooled, they dropped all recommendations for any special "cool down" procedures. Simply driving normally thru your neighborhood was more than enough to return the turbo to non-super-heated condition.

I just posted that picture as an example because I had it handy, but I have seen very similar looking pictures from under the hood of an Audi 1.8T. I don't know about the TT, but in the owner's manual of my A4 it clearly states NOT to shut down the engine immediatelly in hot weather or after extended periods of driving.

Eiron · May 21, 2003

Thanks Pete!! (This engine is from a car originally released in the late '70s, & then eventually replaced in the early '90s. I don't know what specific year this engine is, but it's no newer than 10 yrs old!)

Hmmm ... I wonder if there are different "levels" of water-cooling a turbo? I don't think my '99 Saab has an after-run cooling pump either, but I don't know for sure.

Can anybody else speak to the specifics of water cooling a turbo?

Quattro Pete · May 21, 2003

Greg,

TriSyn had a lot of magnesium to begin with, almost 2000 ppm. So, what he's showing leftover in this sample is merely 10% of the original.

I am not exactly sure where the TT gets its larger oil sump capacity from. I suspect it's the whole transverse (TT/Jetta) vs. longitudinal (A4) engine layout.

The 180hp TT has the same K03 turbo as the A4. The 225hp TT has a bigger K04 turbo, as well as a second intercooler.

I still suspect that the high level of insolubles may be coming from oil coking around turbo. The temperatures there are pretty extreme as the turbo spins at tens of thousands of rpm (around 100,000 rpm actually), and it's not at all unusual to see the turbo literally glow after a spirited run. Not letting it cool down can't be too good for the oil.

[ May 21, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Quattro Pete ]

TooSlick · May 21, 2003

Terry,

Nothing wrong with running Mobil 1, 5w-30 in this engine. In this particular case, I do think you ran the oil a bit too long for the driving conditions. Try a 6000-7000 mile change interval and I believe things will improve. The solids content is way too high here and I'd use a lower limit of 6.0 on TBN from Blackstone.

As for the VW 503 spec, it is for newer VW/Audi engines that are designed to use low viscosity oils. Older VW/Audi gas engines call for the VW 502 or ACEA "A3" specification.

I have a 2002 Audi TT - it does have the coolant pump that circulates coolant after engine shutdown.

TooSlick

vvk · May 21, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
As for the VW 503 spec, it is for newer VW/Audi engines that are designed to use low viscosity oils.

I just wanted to point out that 503.00 and 503.01 are two completely different animals. Different specs, different oils, different applications.

quadrun1 · May 23, 2003

Regarding water-cooled turbos, SAAB has definitely improved the design on their newer cars.

The '88 9000T I had used a water-cooled Garrett turbo set to around 11 psi of boost, max. After a hard run, I could see the turbo glowing brightly... SAAB used to recommend idling the car for 30-60 seconds before shutting it down. It took more like 2-3 minutes of idling to get the glow to subside.

Now on the '02 9-5 Aero, SAAB is using a water-cooled Mitsubishi turbo that puts out around 20 psi of boost! Even after a hard run, the turbo doesn't glow much. Furthermore, SAAB no longer recommends a cool-down period.

As for the VW oil spec, I'd definitely use M1 0W-40 in this application over the 5W-30.

Gotta wonder about the insolubles. Is the Audi filter not up to the task of lasting 10,000 miles?? I'd find this a bit surprising though. Maybe you just got a bad example, with a stuck bypass valve. Does this car use a spin-on oil filter or an insert? If it's an insert, maybe the engine's relief valve is stuck.

I read somewhere that BMW initially had problems with their oil filters when they first recommended a 15,000 mile oil service interval (the filters would fall apart), so they had to improve the design. No problems now.

What kind of conditions does this Audi see? Was it parked outdoors during the winter? This seems to worsen UOAs.

Jason

Idrinkmotoroil · May 24, 2003

as mentioned above I personally think 10,000 miles on a turbo setup is pushing the oil a bit too far. I would keep it below 7000 miles if it was my car, worth a try. I suppose you don't want to try Redline oil, it may hold up better, but there is the cost factor, otherwise Mobil1 at 5000-7000 miles should improve things. Dunno if you can find the new Castrol 0w-30 German made version of Syntec in your area, it seems to have a decent HT/HS number might work well in your engine, if you can find it.

Joey

Pgh TT · May 26, 2003

I use my TT daily - about 8 mi / 20 min one way; several stop signs near my house, several stop lights later. Car seems to warm up about 1/3 of way through trip. Car is garaged in attached garage, so nearly outside temperatures.

Audi TT Oil Analysis

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