1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0L

[jeepzj]

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0L

Oil - Amsoil 5W30
Total miles on oil - 6,379\10 months
Oil filter - Amsoil SDF15(replaced with new after 6 months)
Air Filter - Amsoil 2-stage
Total Miles on engine - 67,379

IRON - 46
CHROMIUM - 2
LEAD - 26
COPPER - 19
TIN - 0
ALUMINUM - 7
NICKEL - 0
SILVER - 0
SILICON - 22
BORON - 23
SODIUM - 10
MAGNESIUM - 457
CALCIUM - 3025
BARIUM - 0
PHOSPHORUS - 1246
ZINC - 1552
MOLYBDENUM - 0
TITANIUM - 0
VANADIUM - 0
POTASSIUM - 0

FUEL - VISCOSITY 40C - N/A
VISCOSITY 100C - 12.31
WATER - 0
SOOT/SOILDS - N/A
GLYCOL - NEG

TBN - 5.20
OXIDATION - 27.0
NITRATION - 23.0


ANALYSIS RECOMMENDATIONS:
Results of test performed indicate no corrective action required.


What do you think?

[ May 15, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[buster]

Numbers look high, especially Iron. Not sure whats going on here. TBN is low, but it has been 10 months. I don't see how anyone could still suggest Amsoil is better then Mobil 1 or Schaeffer's. What ever you do, don't ever try and take this oil past 8k miles without a UOA. The basic Amsoil line is outdated IMO and incapable of very long extended drains. Granted, this bad analysis might be from another problem, but how many people are taking there claims at face value? I'd say 1 out of every 7 Amsoil results are capable of 10k + miles. My .02.

[ May 14, 2003, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Patman]

I know that Jeeps usually show higher wear metals, but yikes.

I'm thinking air leak. Turf that Amsoil filter and go with OEM or Fram.

 

[Al]

I'm with Patman here. I'd also maybe try the 10W stuff.I'm not ready to slam Amsoil. I still their oil analysis are still for the most part better than Mobil 1. I could be wrong though. I really haven't gone back and rechecked a lot of UOA's. As Patman said-this engine probably is tough on oil.

 

[buster]

quote:

---

I'm not ready to slam Amsoil

---

Maybe I get carried away and shouldn't slam Amsoil, hell, I'm using it but I just don't see where it's any MORE capable of going 10k + miles then the other brands? I see the same thing over and over again...one great report followed by oh this should have been done or that or this and it's just a sketchy idea to think 25k miles. Sorry for the rant. I think I'm just dissapointed in it.

I need consistancy!

[ May 14, 2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Neil Womack]

Question?

Does that lead level indicate main bearing wear?

 

[Pablo]

Well Buster I think you are learning there is more to UOA than brand of oil. Please learn to ask the questions.

jeepzj:

1) What brand of oil were you using before?
1a) Who did the oil analysis?
2) How long was that OCI (before this one)?
3) What type of driving do you do?
4) Did you do a flush (before this oil)?
5) The oil doesn't look that broken down, yet your wear numbers seem high compared to OTHER vehicles with many more miles using Amsoil. I have seen Jeeps with high wear numbers (not sure why buster doesn't remember this)

Now here's what I suspect: Since the oil looks to be in OK shape, I think there is some solvency effect (cleaning) from a the previous oil.

Another Jeep UOA

[ May 14, 2003, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[Pablo]

Patman, pack some science here - why the airfilter comment? How do you know the Si at 22 is from the air?

No one is mentioning the Na at 10 PPM. Where did that come from? 1 or 3 ppm past 10K miles, maybe...but I don't see Na in virgin ASL.

EDIT => I done answered my own question - these engines is just grungy - look at the link I posted above Na out the wazoo with two different oils At around 3.5K...Fe elevated, Si high....what's with this motor.

BUT I do think Amsoil still must be more careful with the long interval thing - it's just plain a$$ not for all engines...

[ May 14, 2003, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[TooSlick]

Jeepzj,

I'd be interested in hearing more about the maintenance history of this engine and the type of service it sees. For example, do you take it offroad a fair amount, or is it used primarily on the road. I noticed you only put on 6.7K miles in close to a year, which would seem to indicate very short trip use?

At first glance the iron levels seen slightly elevated, although these engines do produce high Fe levels. The Pb wear seems quite a bit higher than normal; given the low number of miles and a fairly solid TBN. The oil is actually in decent shape and is very close to the baseline viscosity of 11.9 Cst.

If you provide some additional information, I think we can get you better results than this from this engine/oil combination.

There may in fact be an issue with the air filter here, either in terms of being inproperly oiled or simply not fitting correctly. It would be worthwhile to put in a high quality paper filter and retest in another 7k-8k miles.

TooSlick
Dixie Synthetics

 

[MNgopher]

Well, it seems the fact that this engine produces some numbers that look funky compared to other engines is starting to see the light of day!

My take on the analysis is: The oil looks about right for the time / miles the oil was in use as compared to the other 4.0l analysis we've seen on this board. Yes, it looks bad compared to nearly every other engine we see on these boards these days.

One must remember that this engine is an old AMC design that has been around forever. Not a lot of new technology or new fangled stuff went into these engines. It made its appearance in the XJ (Cherokee) in the '87 model year. It has a reputation of being an extremely long runner that is very hard to kill. Engines running over 200,000 miles without rebuilds are very common.

Now put that reputation next to the analysis were seeing, and it makes modern engine design look clean, and old designs look nasty and dirty - which leads people to believe there is a problem when that may just be how this engine operates.

I just took another 3500 mile sample on my XJ 4.0l and will be posting it when the results come in.

I have not seen Blackstone's Universal Averages for this motor yet, but will soon - Now THAT will be an interesting comparison!

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pablo:
Patman, pack some science here - why the airfilter comment? How do you know the Si at 22 is from the air?

---

I'm thinking that most of the silicon is probably dirt simply because the other wear metals are so bad. I could be wrong, but I still would suggest he changes his air filter. Perhaps it's not an exact fit in there. We've heard a lot of stories on here of the Amsoil foam filters coming apart too. It's worth checking into at least. Air filtration is just as important a factor in a good UOA as the choice of oil!

 

[Pablo]

Sure Patman, it is worth looking into, I agree.

But look at your choice of words AND look at the Si level for the link I posted - one is 12, the other is 22 - both at 3xxx miles! Not trying Mr. PC, just trying to be rational and scientific.

We very much need Mr. Jeepzj to answer my questions.

 

[msparks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:
Jeepzj,

I'd be interested in hearing more about the maintenance history of this engine and the type of service it sees.
At first glance the iron levels seen slightly elevated, although these engines do produce high Fe levels. The Pb wear seems quite a bit higher than normal; given the low number of miles and a fairly solid TBN. The oil is actually in decent shape and is very close to the baseline viscosity of 11.9 Cst.

TooSlick
Dixie Synthetics

---

Maintenance history too?
How long you been on Amsoil? Short trips would show higher lead because your doing frequent cold starts. My F150 is the same way. Wait until we see my numbers.

I don't think that this report is that bad, though since your almost at the end of 1 year on the oil, I'd dump it and start over. It will be interesting to see what happens next time.

Pretty interesting though that there is no fuel dilution or Water in the oil. Which are another indicator of short hops.

 

[Cressida]

[/qb][/QUOTE] Perhaps it's not an exact fit in there. We've heard a lot of stories on here of the Amsoil foam filters coming apart too. It's worth checking into at least. Air filtration is just as important a factor in a good UOA as the choice of oil! [/QB][/QUOTE]

I'm with Patman to go with an OEM style paper filter for next run or two. About two months ago I decided I should check out the Amsoil air filter in my van. I opened the air filter housing and was shocked to find a 2 inch tear where the foam had fallen or torn apart. The foam material was in overall bad shape. I replaced it with OEM paper. I must say that my UOA only showed 8ppm for silicon so perhaps the air flow was keeping the tear in place so as to not allow excessive unfilter air in. Nevertheless, I lost confidence in the filter and cleaning the foam is not worth the mess and time in my view.

 

[Spector]

quote:

---

Originally posted by buster:
Numbers look high, especially Iron. What ever you do, don't ever try and take this oil past 8k miles without a UOA. The basic Amsoil line is outdated IMO and incapable of very long extended drains.

---

I concur and he may wish to try the 5W series 3000 which can handle longer drains. I still use the basic (original) 10 W but I realize its limitations and do not go beyond 7500 without UOA to back it up. For me the old original is still cost effective over the Series 2000 or 3000. Less expensive to change out a quart of original half way through cycle then to fill with Series 2 or 3000. The $2/quart diff is significant. For me the wear numbers between the original and new series are the same, diff is in the ability to go longer.

As to the analysis, high numbers but a trend is really needed as well as answers to all above questions. Silicon at 22 really not bad enough to cause the high iron, copper etc. in my experience, so other reasons may apply, like this could be normal for this engine design. .

I have always concurred that Amsoil should change marketing, their oil cannot or should not go beyond 7500 miles without analysis. It is truly misleading and we have seen few good UOA results beyond 10,000. They are there but lots of highway miles.

[ May 15, 2003, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Spector ]

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spector:
...I have always concurred that Amsoil should change marketing, their oil cannot or should not go beyond 7500 miles without analysis. It is truly misleading and we have seen few good UOA results beyond 10,000. They are there but lots of highway miles.

---

But they also say OR 1 YEAR. This analysis is 10 months and the oil itself looks just fine. I think it could easily go 2 more months. The only issue is the higher wear metals which some have said is normal for this engine.
And you would have to have a lot of highway miles to get much more that 10k in a year...That's why the 1yr stipulation is important.

 

[darrenc]

This is an Amsoil UOA from my 96 ZJ for comparison.


This data is about a year old, but I thought I’d share it with the group of fanatics that we are. The vehicle is a 1996 Grand Cherokee 4x4 with a 242 ,4.0 L, inline six-cylinder. At the time of the sample acquisition the vehicle had 101,311 miles on it. The oil had that was analyzed had 24,033 miles on it and was in the Jeep for 11 months and 16 days. The oil was installed on 12/9/2000. The oil filter was changed on 6/1/01 at 10,655 miles. The oil was drained and a sample was taken on 11/24/2001. The only oil added during the test period was during the six month filter change. Added back ½ quart. The oil level never dropped below the full mark on the dipstick during the test period. Here are the specifics:

Oil type: Amsoil 10W-30 ATM, 6 quarts.
Oil filters Amsoil SDF 15, initial filter and six month change filter.
Air Filter: K&N Filtercharger P/N 332248. Installed new on 12/9/2000. Not serviced during test period.

Analysis performed by Oil Analyzers Inc.

Physical Properties:
Glycol: Neg
% Water: % Fuel: 1.2
Viscosity 40 C: NA
Viscosity 100 C: 13.3
% Solids: TR

Oil Degradation:
Soot: NA
% OXD: 33.3
% NOX: 74.3
TBN: 8.2
TAN: NA

Spectrographic Analysis, PPM
Fe: 48
Cr: 2
Pb: 23
Cu: 10
Sn: 3
Al: 10
Ni: 2
Ag: 0
Mn: 1
Si: 17
B: 24
Na: 13
Mg: 322
Ca: 3163
Ba: 0
P: 1222
An: 1522
Mo: 7
Ti: 0
V: 0
Cd: 0

 

[TomL]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patman:
I'm thinking that most of the silicon is probably dirt simply because the other wear metals are so bad. I could be wrong, but I still would suggest he changes his air filter.

---

It appears to be coming through the filter. The Si to Al ratio is nearly 3:1 exact. Back in an old Noria OA email newsletter I remember it saying that if the Si to Al ratio is near 3:1 it's most likely dirt coming through your filter. Is 22ppm of Si really that much though?

Tom

 

[buster]

quote:

---

BUT I do think Amsoil still must be more careful with the long interval thing - it's just plain a$$ not for all engines...

---

Pablo, that was my point, only I should have maybe stated it that way. I like Amsoil, I use Amsoil, but I see so much inconsistancy with it for long drains.

 

[jeepzj]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pablo:
Well Buster I think you are learning there is more to UOA than brand of oil. Please learn to ask the questions.

jeepzj:

1) What brand of oil were you using before?
1a) Who did the oil analysis?
2) How long was that OCI (before this one)?
3) What type of driving do you do?
4) Did you do a flush (before this oil)?
5) The oil doesn't look that broken down, yet your wear numbers seem high compared to OTHER vehicles with many more miles using Amsoil. I have seen Jeeps with high wear numbers (not sure why buster doesn't remember this)

Now here's what I suspect: Since the oil looks to be in OK shape, I think there is some solvency effect (cleaning) from a the previous oil.

Another Jeep UOA

---

Sorry for the delay guys. Here are the answers to your questions.


1) What brand of oil were you using before?
I switched to Amsoil at 40K miles. Usually use 10W30 but used 5W30 for this UOA. I dumped the oil with this UOA and just filled it with 10W30 this time. Before I switched to Amsoil I used dino oil. Mobil, Castrol and even had Midas use Citgo one time. With dino oil I always did an oil change at 3K miles.

1a) Who did the oil analysis?
Oil Analyzers from Amsoil.

2) How long was that OCI (before this one)?
Sorry but what is OCI?

3) What type of driving do you do?
The first 50K miles was 40%highway\60%city. Since my job moved, I've driven 20%highway\80%city over the past 17K miles.

4) Did you do a flush (before this oil)?
Never did an engine flush.

In addition, I've been using a K&N air filter since day one up until 60K miles. Switched to the Amsoil 2-stage the last 7K miles. I currently have 67400 on the odometer. I checked the Amsoil air filter last month and it looked fine....no holes or tears.


Here is my previous UOA. Oil Analyzers did the UOA.

Oil - Amsoil 10W30
Mileage on oil - 5000
Mileage on engine - 61000
Oil filter - Purolator Pure One. Replaced with new after 3K miles.


PHYSICAL PROPERTIES

Glycol - NEG
Water - Fuel - Viscosity - NA
Viscosity – 12.2
Solids - TR


OIL DEGRADATION

Soot - NA
Oxd –21.1
Nox – 27.1
Tbn – 7.4
Tan - NA


SPECTROGRAPHIC ANALYSIS

Iron - 22
Chromium - 0
Lead - 11
Copper - 10
Tin - 2
Aluminum - 6
Nickel - 0
Silver - 0
Manganese - 0
Silicom - 16
Boron - 36
Sodium - 12
Magnesium - 341
Calcium - 3165
Barium - 0
Phosphorus - 1269
Zinc - 1572
Molybdenum - 0
Titanium - 0
Vanadium - 0
Cadmium - 0