WARNING: DON'T USE...

metroplex · Apr 4, 2003

The Lubrimatic High Temperature Grease (Blue stuff) for wheel bearings that may be exposed to salt water!!!

I used it in my 81 T-bird's front wheel bearings and after 2 years (lots of salt on roads in NJ winters) and the outer bearings were almost completely rusted. The grease still looked new, so it appears that it does NOT emulsify with water!

I'm now using Redline CV2-EP because that's all I had at the time. I'm trying to find out whether it will emulsify with water (I'm thinking it should because Redline only makes 1 consumer-end grease). Anyone have any data?

Thanks

metroplex · Apr 4, 2003

as a matter of fact the blue grease didn't mix with water and I could find water droplets on one of the outer wheel bearings!!! perfectly clear water droplets!

I used to use the Lubrimatic black all-purpose grease for wheel bearings and it worked fine.

Now that I have synthetic grease, I used that.

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Apr 4, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by metroplex:

Now that I have synthetic grease, I used that.

So, tell me, how would a synth grease differ from the conventional grease when it comes to mixing with water?

[ April 05, 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

metroplex · Apr 4, 2003

Redline's CV2-EP is described:

quote:

Red Line CV-2 Grease may also be used in industrial applications such as high-temperature alternator bearings, high-speed ball bearings, conveyor bearings, worm gear drives, servo mechanisms, and applications where vibrations can cause fretting wear and corrosion to take place.

I figured if it prevents corrosion, then it must somehow mix with the water.

Other conventional greases have worked for me in the past, but it just seemed odd for the High Temperature stuff to NOT mix with water at all (I would find water droplets surrounding the races and bearings!!).

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Apr 4, 2003

Thats nice metro, but that's nothing but sales stuff off a site, don't all greases "prevent corrosion" when you look at their sales pages on grease?

look at the question I asked since you stated now that you're using a synth grease this won't be a problem, so see if you can explain how would a synth grease differ from the conventional grease when it comes to mixing with water which creates corrosion. Is it the synth that is doing this?

metroplex · Apr 4, 2003

No its the additive package. And I can answer your next question, Schaeffer's grease has the best additive package?

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Apr 4, 2003

BTW, I'm not trying to beat you up on this, just trying to give food for thought when it comes to synth greases vers conventional greases.

RB Shannon · Apr 5, 2003

Was it Just a high temp grease or high temp wheel bearing grease.High temperature industrial greases probably don't have as a robust rust inhibitive package as a wheel bearing or multi purpose grease as their enviroment is usually for dry and hot conditions.

sprintman · Apr 5, 2003

Hmmm I have an unopened jar of CV-2 which I aim to use on my Kart trailer wheel bearings. I hope it's worth the money??

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Apr 5, 2003

The point is that just because the oil is synth, that does not ensure the grease to be better. Many things are in play, just like in oil. The thickener complex and such is critical as well as ep additives and such. I've seen many expensive "good synth greases" that don't hold up in wet envioremints as the complex will hold the moisture in and mix with the water and ultimatly cause rust and corrosion. In the case of what you were talking about, it was apparent that the salt was the problem not water, so you didn't see a water washout problem but a problem with salt mixed in. Anyway, just thought you might look past the word "synth" and the sales pages and learn a little more on grease basics..

Here is more on this subject about grease basics that might help.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000001;p=1#000003

and this goes even further..
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/GREASE/index.htm

metroplex · Apr 5, 2003

BTW it was "Lubrimatic HIGH TEMPERATURE WHEEL BEARING" grease - the blue stuff that yoiu find at K-Mart.

68redlines73 · Apr 6, 2003

Interesting topic. First, some comments, then some questions.

Comments:

I wouldn't be wanting the grease to emulsify any water. I would be worrying if I realized that the grease appeared emulsified. That would mean that the grease was exposed to far too much water. In general, you want the grease to repel water rather than emulsify it. Since you said that the grease "still looked new", emulsification does not appear to be an issue.
The grease you described sounds like it's your basic "GC-LB" grease for high temp wheel bearing applications. The Stant site does not mention this product but I'll assume it's the same as their "Disc/Drum Brake Wheel Bearing Grease" which is listed currently. If this is correct, it is listed as a polyurea-thickened product that should, per applicable standards, work well in your application. Of note is the All-Purpose grease you used previously which appears to be a lithium-based grease.
As Bob mentioned, whether or not the grease has synthetic base oil has very little bearing on the problem you've described. The test required by the NLGI to meet the GC-LB spec (and is included in the basis of the spec, ASTM D 4950) is the ASTM D 1743 rust & corrosion test which is a pass/fail test. A related test to keep in mind is the ASTM D 1264 water washout test which relates to the grease's ability to withstand, as stated in the name, water washout.
Recognizing that you are experiencing the same types of road conditions that thousands of other cars in your area are experiencing (so it's not necessarily an out-of-the-ordinary environment), remember that salt water is quite hard on metal surfaces so if they are unprotected, severe rust is not at all surprising. In the lab, most testing with water is done with DISTILLED water. Only when a severe environment is desired is SALT (actually "synthetic sea) water used.

Questions:

When you applied the grease, did you only apply it to the inner races or did you apply some to all surfaces of the bearing?
Was the car ever exposed to flood conditions?
Did you note any thinning of the grease? I estimated that you may have mixed a lithium and a polyurea grease and they are not compatible.
Have you contacted Lubrimatic (Stant) to let them analyze your problem (if it was my grease, I would want to)?

I'll be interested in your reply and I hope my knowledge can assist you with your predicament.

metroplex · Apr 6, 2003

>>>When you applied the grease, did you only apply it to the inner races or did you apply some to all surfaces of the bearing?

I applied it to the inner races as well as all surfaces of the bearing

>>>Was the car ever exposed to flood conditions?

You could say that - it was used heavily in winter conditions where "puddles" were actually puddles of salt mixed with water, snow, etc...

>>>Did you note any thinning of the grease?

None at all, in fact the grease was pretty thick when I cleaned it out.

>>>Have you contacted Lubrimatic (Stant) to let them analyze your problem (if it was my grease, I would want to)?

No. I just cleaned out the races and installed new bearings + Redline CV2-EP. I also removed the wheel covers during the winter season as I despise wheel covers and they always start popping off when I drive. I re-installed them so as to protect the bearing caps from salt water - I think that might have been the route of entry. The inner bearings were all fine - so I do not believe its a seal issue.

68redlines73 · Apr 6, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by metroplex:
>>>When you applied the grease, did you only apply it to the inner races or did you apply some to all surfaces of the bearing?

I applied it to the inner races as well as all surfaces of the bearing

This will sound like a dumb question. The metal surfaces of the bearing outer race were coated with grease but the outer race was still rusted out?

metroplex · Apr 6, 2003

When I first applied it the outer bearing surfaces were covered in grease.

Upon removal, the little bearing cones were of an orange color.

Is the grease supposed to flow inside that "tunnel" from one bearing to the other? If so, then this grease may have been too thick.

68redlines73 · Apr 7, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by metroplex:
When I first applied it the outer bearing surfaces were covered in grease.

One more framing question...how many miles/how much time between initial greasing and the failure you described?

metroplex · Apr 7, 2003

less than 5000 miles.

68redlines73 · Apr 8, 2003

Metroplex:

With all of your comments in mind, here are my thoughts:

You were using a grease that theoretically should have served you well
You were operating in a relatively severe environment but not necessarily unusual; thus, one would assume that most similar greases would exhibit the same tendencies
You sound like you greased the bearing properly
5,000 miles sounds like far too short a time for the grease to be "used up" (I was not able to verify one way or the other with Ford)
Water washout seems to be the primary culprit although compatibility (or thinning of the grease due to incompatibility) may have played a part; For reference, NLGI GC-LB greases have to meet certain minimum water washout requirements, so, in theory, all GC-LB greases should perform similarly well in this area
Your comments that the remaining grease is "thick" indicates that the "lighter" or "oily" components have been "washed away"
If I was Stant (the Lubrimatic manufacturer), I'd want to have the opportunity to further analyze this particular situation
I believe that this was a compatibility issue that could have been avoided with better flushing of the grease during the changeover

I hope this is helpful.

[ April 08, 2003, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: 68redlines73 ]

metroplex · Apr 13, 2003

I'm using the Redline CV2-EP right now and I went to adjust the bearing pre-load after about 200 miles. One of the front rotors seemed to have a LOT of play and I found that I didn't give it enough bearing pre-load.

Anyhow, I noticed the CV2-Ep that has squirmed out of the bearing cap, which was exposed to water/salt, was now slightly milky in color. I popped the cap open and didn't see any water droplets. I take it the milkiness indicates it emulsified with the water/moisture?

I tightened the castle nut a bit more and there was no more play (previously the rotor was "clicking" if you tried to pull it a bit).

68redlines73 · Apr 15, 2003

Metroplex:

I can't believe I didn't ask these questions earlier but your visual comments about your grease (yes, a milky appearance means that you've emulsified a significant amount of water into your grease) reminded my brain to think about the basics.

Is there some type of cup or other protection covering the front wheel bearing?
Is the seal good on that protective cover?

Your comments make me think that the wheel bearing is fully exposed to the elements which is odd but matches your comments about relatively quick emulsification of an external source of water. These sound like dumb questions but I'm trying to get a logical fix on your situation.

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