Leaded Race fuel and titanium valves

[Mackelroy]

I've heard the coated titanium valves (leaded racefuel) doesnt offer any additional longevity for them.

What has been your experience on valve wear with Lead use on steel valves and coated titanium valves?

 

[dtt004]

Hi.

If you are planning on getting coated titanium valves, I suggest you look into a DLC coating. It is superior to TiN and any other ceramic coating in every which way except color, in which it's a toss up because DLC is black and TiN is..gold. But it's your valves so nobody is going to see anything.

DLC is also superior to any other coating except cost and consistency of application. Find a reputable place that will apply it correctly, because it is usually "spray-sputtered" using a CVD/PVD process that leaves lots of potential for surface ireegularities and film thickness lapses. It simply means that extra time and carefulness must be taken into account which usually drives up cost.

DLC is an amorphous solid, giving it superior strength in most areas of mechanical stress when compared to regular crystalline solids. For example, DLC will "bend" (up to a limit of course) with the substrate that it's adhered too. TiN for example is a plating, so it has a greater chance of flaking off and cracking. Don't know why Ohlins still uses TiN on their fork tubes other than that it's kind of their namesake. In my opinion, DLC is the best coating out there. TiN is also easier applied, giving it consistency that takes more time when applying DLC. But whatever, they're a good company so I'll refrain from saying anything else haha.

It also greatly reduces friction. Great for valves, camshafts, fork tubes, whatever.

I don't think you will notice too much between the two. If you get any coating, it will extend valve life greatly. Leaded fuel should not be a problem; deposits shouldn't adhere to the valves as easily because of the reduced friction.

You can also look into coated steel valves. Probably cheaper, just not as light as titanium valves.

 

[Qwiky]

Yep DLC has lower friction than TiN

The stock Ti valves in rice burners usually are coated. Not sure with what though.

 

[sunruh]

mac,
i think it has as much to do with quality fuel as it does lead vs non-lead.

if you use pump swill, well expect a LOT of carbon buildup and [censored].

use a quality fuel and you wont have that and therefore you wont have [censored] on the valve face when it closes.

however, i DO like lead in my fuel too. adds that extra little bit. like howell 002. however, i also really like vp ms103 (nonlead)

the big question is, what bike are you talking about?

 

[SteveSRT8]

The coatings are to protect the head, not the valve. Bang a titanium part into a steel part and the Ti usually wins!

Leaded fuel is the best one. The other coatings are usually problematic and will not protect the seat when they flake off.

 

[beanoil]

It made no difference in my KX250F. Two sets of replacement stock Ti valves were eaten up in about 50 hours. Kibblewhite Black Diamonds were the fix.

 

[sunruh]

kx250f says it all right there.

not exactly the mark of longevity.

however, 50 hours would be about 4 sets of valves on a crf250
and 2 heads.

blue or orange and they are just broken in at 50.

granted a few have good results on green/yellow/red and a few have bad on blue/orange. but it is just a few with oem.

 

[Mackelroy]

Bean oil, what Type of leaded race fuel were you running?

 

[Mackelroy]

DTT

Thanks for the coating information. In seeing the way that Leaded race fuel eats carbon, I was wondering if it was hard on the valve coatings. Thinking maybe that was the reason the titanium valves are seeing limited to no benefit. I heard someone say that lead wasnt any benefit to the coated valves.

I keep hearing about all these lead fouling issues, But my experience of with Leaded Race fuel , amasing decarbonization Results, from the combustion chamber all the way out the tail pipe.

I was thinking about dual sporting a WR450 or 250, but I need alot more than 50 hour life

 

[Mackelroy]

Sunruh,

It wasnt bike specific, I was just wondering if Leaded race fuel was having any beneficial wear effect on the coated valves.

Seems the jury is still out on that

 

[sunruh]

well, imho, i think it doesnt hurt and problably helps.

i have used, oh i think 3 or 4 bbls of howell 002 and have only used 3 sets of valves. 1 set was replaced by yammie for free.

a wr450 would probably be the better choice, but the superretards i see on the roads around here really point out the why i call them that.

50 hrs is easy to do on either of those bikes. i'd do inspections at 100hrs.

a lot will depend on how long you have to keep it wound up to run 65-70mph on the road. or if you run on the road that much at all.

what most people found out is that 3 colors got the hardness of the seats wrong and so pounded their valves into nice tulips. why is beyond me, because those 3 companies also make fantastic street bikes.

(ps we wont discuss the afterbirth known as the 04/05 rmz/kxf hybrid. i love eric gorr's quote about it being the most poorly designed motorcycle in history)

 

[Mackelroy]

Sunruh
I wasnt aware the RMZ was having so much trouble.

Do you see more ajustment wear on you exhausts or intakes?

My KLX400/DRZ , I put 40,000 on it and it saw a large amount of sustained hour on hour high rpm. The intakes never really moved much the exhausts I adjusted about 2 times.

From what I heard, the offroad oriented bikes tend to have more intake movement.

 

[beanoil]

Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
Bean oil, what Type of leaded race fuel were you running?

It used to be P66 branded, but has changed to Fire Power. I ran the current 355 blend, after talking with David Redszus at PAR. The biggest advantage to race fuel is consistency. Jetting issues are easier to pin point, and much more consistan engine performance is the benefit. Pump swill is just a box of chocolates: you never know what you're gonna get. And Sunruh is right. Orange and blue had valve technology down pat while every one else was struggling with the valve clearance closing to nothing. KXF's and the Suzuki clone (maybe vice versa depending upon your brand favorite) had the most issues. Pro Circuit, Gorr's Forward Motion, and several others stepped in within a couple of months after the KX intro in 04 to cash in on valve and head work because EVERYONE needed it. Good smelling fuel here.....

 

[sunruh]

on the yammies, the exhaust valves will not move. i mean you can run 150 hrs and they will be same as when 0.
the intakes move on blue. slowly and then a lot. once you get to a lot, replace them before you snap a face off.

on red its is BOTH. omg what a nightmare red has been. red has blamed everyone but themselves over the years. funky angles on those small ex stems as well when that unicam rocker starts moving fast. wears out guides in 40hrs.

once yellow and green split back to their own design/mfg things got better 2 years later. now, they are decent. which you wonder who is to blame. the zook design or the kawi mfg? or both?

my buddy Rob had HUGE issues with his '04rmz250. most of the year was spent waiting on valves. finally we got ferrea valves in it and THAT solved the issue. every buck he won went into parts. and ferrea didnt take zook bucks.

here is a hint though. make sure the underside of the carb lid is kept clean.

 

[Mackelroy]

here is a hint though. make sure the underside of the carb lid is kept clean.
))))))))))))))))))))

What are they sucking Dirt, that seems very unusual. Ive never seen that on any of my 2 strokes

Honda CR2stroke line Became so reliable, its terrible how the 4 strokes are holding up in comparison.

But I think in an Offroad enviornment , the only reason for intakes to wear more is dirt ingestion. Cause I havent seen intakes on the street have much issue, the exhausts do wear faster.

 

[sunruh]

your oil belcher does not have 4 carb vent lines does it?

 

[Mackelroy]

DO you have to run your lines filtered as a result ?

I rode one of the first Yz 400 fourstrokes Back around 98, I was riding a CR500 at the time.

I havent been on an mx track since about 1999, I did use to do some Harescrambles also on 125's and 250's . I was mainly an MX guy, but I did the Harescrambles for endurance.

Nowadays I enjoy just opening the garage and going, although street bike dont offer much excercise. Its too bad there's no free riding areas around here , like there used to be.

Are you liking the VFR?

 

[sunruh]

i do not put filters in mine.

i bought a filter system and never got it to work.

the vfr has been staying warm in the garage. i do like it.

 

[Mackelroy]

I was working up in Killen area and the Dealer up there stocks 5 gallon cans of Vp c12, it was like $69 dollars.

I fiqured , even though I still had a few gallons, that price was very good.

only other 2 places was way south at kassons or a performance shop down south. Working up towrds temple, Hard to get down to south austin. Where do you get your fuel?

 

[sunruh]

the problem with the 5gal pail is that you are paying about $20 for that steel can. years ago you would get a recycle credit when you turned it back in for a new one. well, then VP got in trouble with the epa on that. so no more. you end up with a 5gal can you cant use for much.

i buy by the 35gal mini-drum. my guy is no longer selling howell and so i will probably be changing to the P66 rocket brand.
or i'll have my buddy fill it up at VP in S.A.
buying by the drum gets you a better price.

fyi, you can roll a 35gal drum off a truck bed straight to the ground and not even dent it if it lands on a bike tire. 55gal needs a car tire cushion.