06 Duramax, Amsoil 15W-40, 16,500 miles

Status
Not open for further replies.
it has been many year since I have touch a chemistry book, from the litte I can remember von my 40 some college credits of chemistry, I am trying to visualize copper contaminating the oil in an engine.

1. Cu solution - do ya mean copper ions in the oil? or fine copper insolubles in the oil?
if the latter, then anything greater than 2 micron is caught by the filter? and anything smaller runs through your engine and eats your engine through grinding?

2. So is it safe to say that Cu2+ ions are relatively harmless, other than spiking your UOA?
 
I think most of us would agree that most particles 5um or less are fairly harmless overall. But that is presuming that the quantity of those particles is fairly low in overall concentration. There is a big difference between quantity of particles and size of particles.

But there are a few things we need to remember.
1) UOAs ONLY see stuff in the 1-5um range; anything smaller or larger go unseen.
2) UOAs cannot distinguish size of particle; they only account of the concentration, within their visible range
3) While "some amount" of Cu may not be harmful (and perhaps even helpful), exceedingly high amounts of it are not necesarily a good thing.

In respect to the last item, let me be exact. Think of many things in life that are "good" in moderation, but "bad" in excess. Vitamins are "good" but too much "C" or "A" can destroy your liver and kill you. A glass of red wine is reported to be healthy, but we all know that over-comsumption can be detrimental. Some amount of sunshine is good for vitamin "D" production, but too much can cause skin cancer. Get the point? I do realize that Cu is not always a bad thing in a UOA. I do realize that some Cu is occasionaly used as an additive in some oils and treatments. But I also see statistical evidence that TOO MUCH COPPER can quite likely cause other events that are unpredicted and/or unforseen. Ottomatic asked how my database shows the interaction of Amsoil and Dmax engines. Well - that is exactly what I'm trying to get people to hear about. My data shows that there is an 87% chance of elevated Cu above 3 standand devations, and a 69% chance of elevated Cu above 5 standard deviations. (Please note I'm reducing the information to make it consumable. I'm not doing this to "talk down" to people from an egotisical point of view, but there is simply way too much data to put in a consumable format here on this site. I could write a small book about the data collection, distribution, and results on this topic). Yes, all Dmax trucks shed a bit of Cu when new, but that quickly subsides. Unless you use Amsoil, RL, RP, etc. Then the Cu spike are quite large, and hang on for some time. Eventually, the Cu will come back down, but that is not always a quick thing, nor are some people patient enough to wait it out. Also, the spike in Cu is almost always accompanied by a spike in Fe. Now, is it the chemistry of the oil making the Fe spike, or is it the presence of elevated Cu wearing on the Fe? I don't know, but neither do you. We DO know that they often go hand-in-hand (93% of the time in my database). Also, don't forget that the UOA only sees what it can see; if the Cu is 350ppm, how much more Cu is floating around above 5um and below 1um? Remember - some Cu might be a good thing, but too much is likely a bad thing.

Further, just what seems desireable about removing Cu from a cooler anyway? I don't care if it's a "chemical" reaction that some would say is harmless. I am often just a simple man who likes easy analogies. Think of your skin as the barrier it is. If I remove a small amount of skin by the normal process of "wear", your body is prepared to endure for a long time. But if I abrade it with a wire brush, or burn it away with chemicals, do you really give a poo what took your flesh away? As your skin is peeled away, some amount of your protective barrier is removed. It's no different with the Cu in the cooler in my opinion. I don't care if the Cu is stripped away by mechanical friction or chemical reaction; I don't want it removed at all. That is a barrier I want in place. Period. The less removed the better, for me. I DO FULLY AGREE THAT SOME SMALL AMOUNT OF CHEMICAL REMOVAL IS UNAVOIDABLE, AND HAPPENS EVERY TIME WE CHANGE OIL. But I don't agree with the notion that all is well when huge amounts of Cu are present in a UOA, and that is only the Cu we can see in the UOA; how much "more" is being stripped that I can't see??? I fully agree and understand that the bearing are fine; that is not the Cu we are seeing and I understand that. I'm talking about the cooler here, folks. At some point, and none of us probably know what that point is, the cooler is being degraded. Clearly there is no significant failure rate of coolers, or we'd all hear about it. So I would be the first to profess that the point might be moot. But "might be" and "are" are not the same thing. I cannot assure you that this is truly bad, but you cannot assure me that this is truly moot; at best, it's a stalemate.

But what I DO know is that high Cu has two other effects.
1) it clearly affects Fe as well. Probably not to a level that is grossly detrimental, but it's certainly not benign either.
2) high levels of wear metals in a UOA from chemical reactions can mask the metals shed from wear events. At times, the Cu spikes can be so grossly high that you simply cannot see the forrest for the trees. The "noise" from the chemical stripping is easily able to mask other events, and you'd never know it.


To really give a fair synopsis on this Amsoil/Dmax topic I'd have to say this:
* I cannot prove that high Cu is completely detrimental
* I can prove that high Cu skews data ranges and trends in a UOA
* I can prove that high Cu is able to mask and hide other events due to the magnitude of the element present
* I can prove that high Cu is accompanied by other elevated wear metal counts (Fe)
* I cannot distinguish at what level Cu stops being "helpful" and starts being "hurtful", but we all understand that at some point, that transition does take place
* Amsoil states that these "chemical" reactions are not harmful
* Amsoil states that they cannot explain why the reactions are stronger in some units, but not others
* Amsoil cannot prove that these reactions are not detrimental
* I would agree with Amsoil that the Cu is likely from the cooler and not from bearings, but since I don't use Amsoil, and have never done a teardown on a Dmax engine to measure bearings and visually review them, I cannot say this for sure
 
Last edited:
I'm not going to spend hours linking all the threads, but here are a few, on top of the several I already posted from the other site, so let's include these:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1879756&page=1

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1977069&page=1

Here's one in a PSD:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1781345&page=1

And of course, let's not forget this very thread we're commenting on, which had 634ppm of Cu, with elevated Fe.



Here's an interesting one that is NOT Amsoil, but RTS. Note the comments about "abrasive" Cu. Do I think Blackstone is an infallible serivce? Nope. But they see way more UOAs than most of us. They do not sell oil, but they do sell oil analysis services. They have no dog in the Amsoil/Cu hunt, so to speak. They see the corelation of high Cu to other elevated wear metals and it made enough difference for them to note it, and mention is even when it's not Amsoil they are talking about.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1921218&page=1


I've got more than 230 UOAs in my statistical database for HDEOs now. There is a distinct propensity for some (but certainly not all) Amsoil/Dmax combinations to have high Cu, and develop high Fe as well. (This phenomonon is not limited to Amsoil; it happens with other high-end products as well.) At times, that Cu may be present in such quantity (both in what a UOA can and cannot see) that it causes wear. Even Blackstone sees it.
 
Last edited:
I don't own a DMax but the copper would not concern me if I did. No different to me than some that say Schaeffer increases lead. All of my agricultural tractors have oil coolers and the copper levels on them were high for a long time. They all ran either full PAO or PAO,Ester,hydrocracked blend oils. I ignored the readings because they were relatively new. As the hours climbed I would check them occasionally just to set my intervals. I rarely even do a UOA on them anymore because I know what intervals each piece of equipment can safely run in the harshest of service. Either UOAs are accurate for determining wear or they are not; we can't have it both ways. To me, they are most useful for setting acurate intervals, and monitoring contamination. Too many folks are buying expensive oil and expecting miracles in one or two intervals. Without establishing a trend you are trying to pee up a rope.
 
Today I got a response back from Amsoil on this topic. It took a little longer for an official response as some of their staff was away on Thanksgiving holiday.

Below is a collaboration between four of Amsoil's top staff and headed off by the Technical Services Manager.

Heavy Duty/ Off Road-Product Specialist
Technical Services Manager
Vice President Technical Development, Technical Department Manager
Manager, OIL ANALYZERS INC.

Quote:
With respect to acceptable copper levels found in used oil analysis, this will vary based on the type of vehicle, as well as the amount of miles on the oil and vehicle. The concern you pose is specific to the amount of copper in used oil analysis, with Duramax engines. At first glance, high levels of copper may be a concern, unless one understands why and how this may be occurring in the diesel engine.

With diesel applications, such as the Chevy Duramax, oil coolers most often than not are the source of the elevated copper levels in used oil analysis. When diesel oils are introduced to copper coolers, a chemical process occurs and copper sulfides begin to form on the copper cooler lines. Over time, the copper cooler line surfaces will form a coating, reducing the amount of copper sulfides leaching into the engine oil. The verification of this is seen through used oil analysis over a period of time. Vehicles that have low mileage, or low time on the oil, will usually indicate higher levels of copper than vehicles with higher mileage, and longer time on the oil.

Attached is a spreadsheet that includes used oil analysis from Duramax vehicles, using mostly AMSOIL diesel oil. You’ll see on average, vehicles with higher mileage have lower levels of copper, as opposed to those with lower mileage. Also, it is important to understand that other wear metals, such as iron and lead, are very low, which is key when determining whether or not engine oil is lubricating properly. If the engine oil is not providing proper lubrication, elevated wear metals such as lead, copper, and iron will be present, rather than just elevated copper.

Coolant leaks can also be the origin of higher copper levels in engine oil. Although copper is not found in antifreeze, if a coolant leak is detected through used oil analysis, more than likely high levels of potassium, sodium, and copper, will be reported. Most likely, the source of the leak will be the oil cooler, which we know is copper.

In closing, high levels of copper alone should not be a concern with these diesels. If high levels of copper are accompanied by other elevated wear metals, such as lead and Iron, more investigation should take place as to the cause. We hope this helps, and wish you well going forward. Cited: e-mail, Don Zupec - Amsoil Technical Services Manager


Any ideas how to post the excel spreadsheet here in the forum?
 
I want to say here and now, that I respect the products that Amsoil makes, believe them to be viable options in many conditions, and know that they provide a very good ROI for those people that understand how and when to use them. I DO NOT HATE AMSOIL, NOR LOVE THEM. However, I must say that was really unfulfilling, regarding Amsoil's written response. That is a generic explination that most any of us attuned to the topic already know.

That Cu spikes with the use of Amsoil is no big secret, and they clearly admit that. What they are in denial of, is the significant difference between what they call "normal" and what the rest of the industry UOA average shows is "normal". Their statement that "When diesel oils are introduced to copper coolers, a chemical process occurs and copper sulfides begin to form on the copper coller lines." is true, but it says NOTHING to the extent of the reactions where Amsoil clearly shows a propensity to spike the Cu in Dmax trucks, while dino brands do not.

Again, everyone needs to look at all the UOAs I've posted. Dino oils do NOT give these types of highly elevated Cu numbers. For Amsoil to lump "diesel oils" into that previous sentence statement is for them to infer that this is normal and happens all the time. I would agree that the process they describe does indeed take place. WHAT I TAKE ISSUE WITH IS THE MAGNITUDE OF THE REACTION. CONVENTIONAL OILS DO NOT EXHIBIT THIS "REACTION" ON THE SCALE THAT AMSOIL (AND SOME OTHER) PAO's DO.

There are Amsoil/Dmax UOAs where the Cu spikes to 300ppm, 500ppm, 700ppm, and I even saw one once approaching 1000ppm! Never, ever, have I seen a dino UOA on a Dmax get that incredibly high. Never. This "chemical reaction" that Amsoil is describing is certainly true, but they are downplaying the extreme magnitude of the numbers. The Blacksone universal average of Cu is 9ppm in 6.6k miles. Some of the Amsoil UOAs are coming in with numbers 30x, 50x or even 100x that amount! And often, the Fe is elevated with Amsoil, but to a lesser magnitude.

That Amsoil statement is pure defensive rhetoric, to me. They are giving us the "Heisman" stiff-arm answer, rather than truly answering the root questions:
Why do most Amsoil UOAs in Dmax trucks show a vastly signficant elevation in Cu, when contrasted to the industry "normal" numbers?
What "chemistry" does Amsoil posses that is unique, so much so that they exhibit "unique" UOA results?
What proof do they have that such elevated Cu does not also affect other metals (hence, the often associated elevated Fe numbers)?

Here's the way I read "in between the lines" regarding their prepared statment.
Q: Why does Amsoil often spike the Cu in Dmax engine UOAs?
A: That's normal.
Q: Normal for Amsoil, yes, but not the overall lube industry. Allow me to be more specific. Why does Amsoil exhibit a distinct shift in the trend of UOA Cu analysis in a Dmax, on orders of magnitude ranging from 30x to 100x higher?
A: That's typical; happens all the time.
Q: Yes, I know. I see the evidence. Buy what is unique to Amsoil that makes this happen, and how can we be assured that it's not detrimental?
A: All our analysis shows this is a common chemical reaction.
Q: Yes, yes, it's "common" to Amsoil, but that does not specifically address the question. Why should we accept this "chemical reaction" as "common" when it clearly is not by UOA statistical evidence.
A: All our data shows this is acceptable.
Q: Most all your data is based upon other Amsoil UOAs; how much of your data is represented by conventional oils? How can you call a sub-set of data representing Amsoil/Dmax Cu readings "acceptable" when they are clearly "abnormal" by total industry standards?
A: This is not "abnormal".
Q: Then why does this very UOA by Oil Analyzers state "Overall severity of report--------2 (abnormal)" on the official return doucment?
A: ..........
Q: Hello? ........ Answer please .............
A: Those numbers are expected.
Q: OK - forget the Cu; let's talk Fe. You stated this: "If high levels of copper are accompanied by other elevated wear metals, such as lead and Iron, more investigation should take place as to the cause." It is not uncommon to see the Fe climb 2x, 3x, or 5x above the "universal average" in these very same Amsoil/Dmax elevated Cu UOAs. At what level would you call elevated Fe a concern? Is the very high Cu concentration actually becoming abrasive and making the engine shed Fe as well?
A: ..................



Frankly, I'd have more respect for their "official" response if they simply said something like this:
"We're not going to be able to give you the specific answers you seek, as it might affect our market strategy, customer base and competitors. We have 30+ years of production and millions of miles of safe, effective customer vehicle operation. We have a very low failure rate, stellar reputation and an excellent warranty; we earned these with great effort. Respectfully, that's all we're going to tell you, and nothing more. We're not going to insult your intelligence by giving you generic answers that mean little to nothing."
I personally could respect a statement like that because it's truthful, direct and to the point.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top