German Castrol 0w30 in small engines?

[Ross]

I use GC in all my OPE. It gets the 0W due to its properties in ultra cold weather (20 below zero and colder F). But around normal start up temps in the summertime (say 50-80 degrees F) it is actually thicker than most 5W oils.

When GC became the hit thing here some 6 years ago, I had a hard time understanding that. My thinking was that a 0W oil must be thinner at startup than a 5w oil at all temps, but that's not the case, only at ultra low temps does it behave like a 0w oil.

 

[bigbird_1]

Hey Ross, we're not that far away, and do have the same tough extreme continental climate.
The GC 0W-30 seems like such a waste of money to put into a lawn mower when cheaper Rotella 15W-40 will do a great job.

 

[boraticus]

Lawn mowers live forever on any oil suitable for the application. The need for expensive oil is completely unnecessary.

Experience has taught me that just about any engine will run well and last a good long time provided it gets regular oil changes. The brand is of no consequence. Proper decent quality oil and viscosity for the application is all that matters.

People who prefer to indulge in expensive oil, do so either from ignorance, or to address certain psychological needs to allow them to feel satisfied that they've gone the extra mile to ensure their engine is well taken care of.

Either way, the ignorance factor can be easily addressed.

Those of us who understand mechanics/lubrication etc. have difficulty accepting the fact that others need to use expensive oil more to deal with their fears/desires than to provide acceptable lubrication for their engine(s). It's like a placebo. No real advantage although for the patient, it "seems" to work.

Hey, if it gives them peace of mind, it's a small price to pay, provided they're not maintaining a fleet of machines.

 

[Chris B.]

I started using GC this year out of simplicity. I got tired of having to buy and maintain a stock of oil for all of my many different engines. I use GC in my 3 cars so I always have a supply of it. I decided that since it seems to be a good oil for OPE that I'd just change over all my engines to it. Now I only have to keep GC on hand.

That is why I use it, not because I need a shrink or have a mental disorder that requires me to use expensive, unnecssary products. It costs me less then 2 qt. of oil for all my OPE so $14 a year for oil is not expensive by any means. If you can't afford $14 a year you should not own a lawn mower or a home that requires any maintenance....LOL

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
People who prefer to indulge in expensive oil, do so either from ignorance, or to address certain psychological needs to allow them to feel satisfied that they've gone the extra mile to ensure their engine is well taken care of.

Either way, the ignorance factor can be easily addressed.


Boraticus, I have always appreciated your confident opinions, but I think this one is a bit of an over used generalization that you seem to apply to everyone that chooses anything other than "regular products".

I maintain a tiny fleet of John Deere tractors at my workplace. I know of THREE diesel engines at other units at my workplace that were ruined by cavitation by the "really ignorant" use of silicated auto coolant (the old Prestone conventional).

I never had any qualms about spending $3-$4 more per gallon for OEM JD coolant (recognized as excellent) for "piece of mind" on some $100,000 worth of equipment. It relieved me of studying, choosing, and worrying about other diesel rated coolants for compatibility, etc..

I agree with your ideas regarding psychological needs, but please don't label everyone that uses the more expensive stuff as ignorant. Some reasons are rational. When I replaced the air filters on our $9,000 Exmark zero turn last spring, I told the dealer I didn't want the Chinese off brand ones he stocked, and I paid about $6 more for him to order the OEM Fleetguard filters. Is that ignorant too?

I know that your skin is not thin, so I am prepared for your volley back!!!

Best Regards, with respect.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
The brand is of no consequence. Proper decent quality oil and viscosity for the application is all that matters.
Interesting, last week you posted the exact opposite about a snowblower engine that is burning oil at an alarming rate:
Originally Posted By: boraticus
There is nothing to fix on this engine. As difficult as it may be for some to accept, Mobil 1 synthetic may not be suitable for this engine.

So which is it?

 

[boraticus]

I use the term "ignorance" as per definition, for those "without sufficient knowledge" to make an informed decision.

For example, a person with no mechanical experience buys a lawn mower and asks the dealer what oil to use in it. The dealer sells the person a liter of $15.00 bottle boutique oil because it makes the dealer more profit and the buyer doesn't know better. An informed buyer would not likely pay that much for a liter of oil that will be dumped in five hours after break in.

A person who is aware of what's required and what product will do the job sufficiently but decides to spend multiples of the cost unnecessarily is making a choice for reasons other than practicality. That is where psychological needs outweigh practical needs. No? Otherwise, why would they do it?

In the instances you've pointed out, it's obviously not a case of ignorance nor obsession.

Using the proper product is the right thing to do. The coolant choice that caused engine problems appears to have been the wrong product for the application. The difference in price between the wrong stuff and the right stuff isn't that significant and the right stuff is available in non JD branded, off the shelf products for even less.

I'm not advocating using junk products. Never have. I have always said to use quality brand products with known reputations for making very good lubricants at very reasonable prices.

There's a big difference between using the right stuff and using way over the top, super expensive lubricants that do not provide the extra level of protection to balance the extra level in cost. Any informed person who does, isn't doing it because it's necessary. Right?

I have no problem spending more money for more value. That's just good common sense. However, I cannot come to terms with spending two or three times the price for a bottle of oil that will only provide a fraction of a percent more protection.

 

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: flatlandtacoma
Originally Posted By: boraticus
The brand is of no consequence. Proper decent quality oil and viscosity for the application is all that matters.
Interesting, last week you posted the exact opposite about a snowblower engine that is burning oil at an alarming rate:
Originally Posted By: boraticus
There is nothing to fix on this engine. As difficult as it may be for some to accept, Mobil 1 synthetic may not be suitable for this engine.

So which is it?

I have never used synthetic oil in OPE until I bought the Simplicity blower with the Kool Bore engine. The manual recommended synthetic and I followed the manual's recommendation. Less than one liter per year of synthetic is of little consequence particularly when I bought it on sale for only a buck more than quality conventional oil.

The fact that it does not appear to be compatible with MY engine has nothing to do with my basic philosophy. As a matter of fact, if the conventional oil that I used to replace the Mobil 1 performs better, it has reinforced my opinions that synthetics are not the be all and end all of oils.

Mobil is a decent quality product as is Shell, Castrol, Delvac etc. In fact, being a synthetic, one would think it would be a better product than the conventional offerings. It the instance of my Kool Bore issue, it may not be the right choice.

As I have said, any quality brand of the right viscosity for the intended purpose will do provided it's compatible with the engine. We won't know if it's compatible until we try it right?

My motto is "Best oil for the best price."

From my experience, HDEO such as Rotella, Delvac etc. are excellent values.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: bigbird_1
What I had trouble understanding was your rationale for using a 0W-anything in the summer.


Because once it's up to operating temperature it's almost a 40, and it's irrelevant that it also carries a 0W rating.

You should spend some time on the other sub-forums here to learn about GC before throwing stones at those using it.

GC is high HTHS, almost 40 weight @100C and very shear stable DESPITE also earning a 0W rating. There's absolutely no downside to a 0W rating in any weather when the other characteristics of the oil are so strong.

 

[doitmyself]

Since this topic is still fresh and the GC threads might not pertain to OPE, can someone answer a few questions.

1. Everyone says GC is shear stable, but has anyone presented any facts to support this in air cooled engine use.

2. And, could someone SHOW how the viscosity of GC is at different operating temps? Maybe on the Widman calculator? A lot of people are suggesting its use in snowblowers, yet they also say it is thicker than 5w30 above certain temps.. At what point is the 0w significant?

3. Why or when is GC beneficial over a 5w or even 10w?

4. In summer OPE applications, how would GC compare to the Amsoil ASE or ASD 30W/10W30? The "near 40w" and "shear resistance" seems perfect for summer use, yes?

Thanks.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Since this topic is still fresh and the GC threads might not pertain to OPE, can someone answer a few questions.

1. Everyone says GC is shear stable, but has anyone presented any facts to support this in air cooled engine use.


Specifically air cooled? I can't answer that. In typical water cooled applications UOAs have shown it to be very shear stable. If it proves to be top-shelf in road car engines, it should still be better than the same competition in air cooled applications. Do you have proof to the contrary?

The point here is that GC isn't like most other 0W30s and it is not UNsuitable for OPE use.


Quote:

2. And, could someone SHOW how the viscosity of GC is at different operating temps? Maybe on the Widman calculator? A lot of people are suggesting its use in snowblowers, yet they also say it is thicker than 5w30 above certain temps.. At what point is the 0w significant?


The @100C is a trivial spec to show in PDS or UOA - is this a trick question? Same with the HTHS rating. At the cold end it's been often discussed about how GC is not always thinner than an average 5W30 at all "cold" temps but it is thinner at very cold temps, including the temps where the rating tests are performed.

Something to keep in mind here is that GC is high HTHS and almost a 40. It is the ONLY 0W30 which is ACEA A3 rated. If you have an engine application which requires these @100C properties there is no better cold weather oil you could use. This applies mostly to Euro engines.

If you have an OPE application in which you wish you could run a 40 but you care about cold start protection, the same statements apply. It's not quite a 40 (GC is 12.1cSt @100C and 40 starts at 12.5 or 12.6 IIRC) but it's close and given that, there's no better COLD protection 40 you could choose.

Quote:

3. Why or when is GC beneficial over a 5w or even 10w?


Most 5w30 and 10w30s aren't as thick @100C as GC yet GC retains excellent cold properties. Sure, there may be 10cSt 5W30s which are thinner than GC at 0C, but are you looking for 10cSt at operating temp? In air cooled OPE it will be even thinner at hot spots.

GC retains tougher properties at operating temp than what you're seeking to compare to (on average).

Quote:

4. In summer OPE applications, how would GC compare to the Amsoil ASE or ASD 30W/10W30? The "near 40w" and "shear resistance" seems perfect for summer use, yes?

Thanks.


IMO it isn't UNsuitable (to use that word again), but GC's ability to be a top performer at high and low temps isn't needed. In summer OPE only the hot temp performance really matters. Sure you could use it - lots of people do. I have used Amsoil ASE in my summer OPE but I found it made it noisy (general racket, kind of like "M1 noise"). I switched to 15W40 HDEO and things are much quieter. I believe ASE is mostly PAO and has excellent VI without VIIs and is thus "at least" a 10W30, if not better. I can tell you that in our local October weather (let's say in the 40s) ASE is much easier to pull start than Rotella T 15W40 in my Honda GXV140.

I use GC in my 1986 Toro "824" #38080 snowthrower. It stays clean, is easy to start, and I certainly haven't had any oil related issues. GC is also on my shortlist for my road cars so I always have some around and it's not a "special purchase" just for my snowblower.

There's a thread in the Euro oil subforum about GC and "MRV" values where the cold temp properties of GC compared to other 5W oils is/was being discussed. Maybe you'd be interested in some of the discussion there.

 

[doitmyself]

Thanks, Craig. No intent of trick questions, it's more an indication of my oil ignorance, especially of GC. I can only think of one BITOGER that did some UOA'a of OPE oil use (Pete???) and he made some "fact based" decisions for HIS circumstances. I.E, ASE sheared bad in his tests.

I was wondering if at the average winter use temps. of GC of, let's say 0F to 32F (-18C to 0C) if the GC was thinner then a 5w, or if the GC benefit did not kick in until much lower temps. (my request for the Widman calculator).

And, in the summertime, I was wondering if the GC would provide Dr. Haas' "thinnest is bestest at startup" and at the same time provide a near 40w protection at high temps....

Mostly academic interest, to learn more, but not necessarily pursue in use (although I did persuade my son to install GC in his "new to him" snow blower). I don't dispel Boraticus' view about "good enough" either.

 

[Bror Jace]

Craig in Canada, I'm another that was recently asking about GC's performance in high temps. I honestly don't know.

Yes, most of us know of OPE that has survived perfectly with a horrendous amount of neglect and that almost any oil (let alone GC) is perfectly up to the job of keeping most OPE alive as long as the sump is kept to something close to full.

Like a few others here, I like 15W-40 HDEOs for most temps above freezing ... especially 80-90F summer running.

However, some folks like Cujet have posted about OPE they have run to the point of ruin in Florida heat. After a handful of ruined pumps, he switched to Mobil 1 15W-50 and now uses that stuff exclusively.

So, I'd still like to see someone really torture GC and see if it has any realistic limits. Since that could be running it in a racing engine or OPE engine to the point of failure, it's probably more realistic to expect you'll come across a OPE owner that pushed GC a little too far.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Bror Jace

However, some folks like Cujet have posted about OPE they have run to the point of ruin in Florida heat. After a handful of ruined pumps, he switched to Mobil 1 15W-50 and now uses that stuff exclusively.

So, I'd still like to see someone really torture GC and see if it has any realistic limits. Since that could be running it in a racing engine or OPE engine to the point of failure, it's probably more realistic to expect you'll come across a OPE owner that pushed GC a little too far.


I've read the posts, the thing is that there may be a lot more at work than just the oil. No matter how great GC is, it isn't a 50 weight. Is it the "Mobil1" on the oil bottle that's saving Cujet's gear or is it the fact that it's a 50 weight? If temps are getting outside of operating range and clearances are tightening or something in Cujet's case, the '50' part of the equation might be what's working for him.

 

[Best F100]

I can answer some of theses questions. I use German Castrol 0W30 in a 13 kw, Generac stand by generator (year round). It is natural gas fueled and air cooled. Runs at 3600 rpm and is hard on oils. Oil capacity 2 qts with filter.

A few years ago, during a home power outage of 48 hours in 90F temperatures, I had oil consumption of less than 1/4 qt using GC. With Mobil 1 10W30, I had a higher consumption rate and oil burn off. The current Mobil 1 formulations have probably changed since I used it. (Product Data Sheet numbers have changed a bit). I also got great results and little consumption using straight 30 wt. So you don't have to spend a lot to get good results in hot weather, for an air cooled engine. I'm sticking with GC.

Most Generac owners use Mobil 1 5W30 in their air cooled generators. I have heard of some of them complaining of oil consumption problems during extended power outages. When the oil levels drop to a certain point, the generator will cut itself off, to prevent serious damage.

I have never tried Amsoil. I do have some of their 10W30 Motorcycle oil (MCT), that I will use next summer.

 

[boraticus]

"Most Generac owners use Mobil 1 5W30 in their air cooled generators. I have heard of some of them complaining of oil consumption problems during extended power outages."

You don't say??

I've got a thread about my B&S Kool Bore engine consuming excessive amounts of Mobil 1 5W30 and received a hail of comments suggesting my relatively new engine must be shot because there's NO WAY Mobil 1 could be at fault.

It will be interesting to see what reasons the naysayers come up with for those machines using so much Mobil 1.