Does w30 provide more longevity over w20??

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: badnews
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
"as thin as possible, as thick as necessary"

Try to follow this rule.

Basically, Xw-20 will provide sufficient protection for your Civic and will easily get you to 300k miles. Higher grades will just rob you of performance and fuel economy.


Post proof
That is so much malarkey

Thin oil can lead to cylinder wear, especially if you have any fuel dilution

If you have cylinder wear, then you have not chosen an oil that is "as thick as necessary".

 

[sangyup81]

Originally Posted By: badnews
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
"as thin as possible, as thick as necessary"

Try to follow this rule.

Basically, Xw-20 will provide sufficient protection for your Civic and will easily get you to 300k miles. Higher grades will just rob you of performance and fuel economy.


Post proof
That is so much malarkey

Thin oil can lead to cylinder wear, especially if you have any fuel dilution

Wow man, you just asked for proof of things like 5w20 will not cause your engine to die before 300k but make a claim about cylinder wear with no proof?

 

[tinmanSC]

This poor thread. It's beaten, given up the ghost, and has been sent to the gave. Twice. Not even sure I know what we are even talking about anymore.

 

[tpattgeek]

We are wondering why anyone would think a xw-20 is too thin? Some vehicles, maybe so. Many modern passenger cars, including mine, no way.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: badnews
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
"as thin as possible, as thick as necessary"

Try to follow this rule.

Basically, Xw-20 will provide sufficient protection for your Civic and will easily get you to 300k miles. Higher grades will just rob you of performance and fuel economy.




Post proof
That is so much malarkey

Thin oil can lead to cylinder wear, especially if you have any fuel dilution


You're kidding, right? Do you also need proof that the earth is actually round?

Thinner oil results in more efficient operation, period. If the oil isn't thick enough to be suitable for the application, then sure it can increase wear. But as long as it is thick enough to provide adequate film strength during it's life, there's no benefit to going thicker, and plenty of drawbacks, including increased wear.

BTW, scoring of the cylinder walls is hardly the only point of wear on an engine. Wear at the seals is also equally (if not more) important in maintaining engine performance over its lifespan. Thinner oil decreases seal friction torque and reduces wear. It's not all about film strength.

People really to get over this deal that "more=better" and "CAFE=the government wants to ruin our engines".

If you want proof, here's some light reading. Enjoy:

1. “Engine Oil Performance Requirements & Reformulation for Future Engines &
Systems”, S.Korcek & M. Nakada, Proceedings of the International Tribology
Conference, Yokohama 1995, p 783
2. “Fuel Economy Engine Oils : Present & Future”, M. Yamada, [censored]. J. Trib., 41, No. 8, p
783, 1996
3. “Fuel Economy Factors in Lubricants”, J.G. Damrath & A.G. Papay, SAE 821226
4. “Tribology of Reciprocating Internal Combustion Engines”, S. Furuhama, [censored]. Soc.
Mech. Engrs Int. J., 30, No. 266, p 1189, 1987
5. “Fuel Economy Improvement by Engine & Gear Oils”, W.J. Bartz, 5th CEC International
Symposium : Performance Evaluation of Automotive Fuels & Lubricants, CEC97-EL19
6. “Some Relationships Between the Viscometric Properties of Motor Oils & Performance
in European Engines”, J.C. Bell & M.A. Voisey, SAE 770378
7. “Engine Friction Reduction for Improved Fuel Economy”, J.T. Kovach, E.A. Tsakiris &
L.T. Wong, SAE 820085
8. “Engine Friction - A Change in Emphasis”, M.L. Monaghan, Proc. Instn. Mech. Engrs,
202, No. D4, pp 215-226
9. “Engine Friction : The Influence of Lubricant Rheology”, R.I. Taylor, Proc. Instn. Mech,
Engrs, 211, Part J, p 235, 1997
10. “Prediction of the Influence of Lubricant Formulations on Fuel Economy, from
Laboratory Bench Tests”, C. Bovington & H. Spikes, Proceedings of the International
Tribology Conference, p 817, 1995
11. “Lubricant Related Fuel Savings in Short Trip, Cold Weather Service”, T.J. Sheahan &
W.S. Romig, SAE 750676
12. “A Cold-Start Track Test for Evaluating Fuel-Efficient Oils”, G.B. Toft, I.Mech.E/SAE
Joint Int. Conf. on Fuel Efficient Power Trains and Vehicles, London, October 1984
13. “FLARE : An Integrated Software Package for Friction & Lubrication Analysis of
Automotive Engines - Part I : Overview & Applications”, P.K. Goenka, R.S. Paranjpe
14. “FLARE : An Integrated Software Package for Friction & Lubrication Analysis of
Automotive Engines - Part II : Experimental Validation”, R.S. Paranjpe & A. Cusenza,
SAE 920488
15. “Sequence VIB Engine Test for Evaluation of Fuel Efficiency of Engine Oils - Part II.
Stage Selection and Time Factor Determination”, J. Sorab, S. Korcek, C.B. McCollum
& K.W. Schriewer, SAE 982624
16. “Practical Applications of Lubrication Models in Engines”, R.C. Coy, p 197, in New
Directions in Tribology (edited by I.M. Hutchins, published by MEP, 1997)
17. “Friction Modelling for Internal Combustion Engines”, Li Sheng Yang, PhD Thesis,
University of Leeds, 1992
18. “Development of a Friction Prediction Model for High Performance Engines”, K.
Hamai, T. Goto & S. Kai, J. Soc. Trib. & Lub. Engrs., 47, No. 7, p 567-573, 1990
19. “Trends in Engine Technology and Tribology”, M. Nakada, Trib. Int., 27, p 3-8, 1994
20. “Engine Friction Modelling”, R.H. Thring, SAE 920482
21. “Prediction of ASTM Sequence VI and VIA Fuel Economy Based on Laboratory
Bench Tests”, A.K. Gangopadhyay, J. Sorab, P.A. Willermet, K. Schriewer, K. Fyfe &
P.K.S. Lai, SAE 961140
22. “Influences of Lubricant Properties on ASTM Sequence VI and Sequence VI-A Fuel
Efficiency Performance”, A.J. Moore, SAE 961138
23. “Critical Oil Physical Properties that Control the Fuel Economy Performance of General
Motors Vehicles”, M.T. Devlin, W.Y. Lam & T.F. McDonnell, SAE 982503
24. “Reibungsverluste in Verbrennugsmotoren (Friction Losses in Combustion Engines)”,
O.R. Lang, Schmiertechnic Tribologie, 29, p 90-92, 1982
25. “Reducing Friction Losses in Automobile Engines”, M. Hoshi, Trib. Int., 17, No.4, p
185-189, 1984
26. “Engine Oil Effects on Fuel Economy in GM Vehicles - Comparison with the ASTM
Sequence VI-A Engine Dynamometer Test”, S.I. Tseregounis & M.L. McMillan, SAE
952347
27. “Sequence VIB Engine Test for Evaluation of Fuel Efficiency of Engine Oils - Part I.
Aging Procedure for Determination of Fuel Efficiency Retention”, M.D. Johnson, C.B.
McCollum, S. Korcek, R.K. Jensen, K.W. Schriewer, P.H. Neal & P.K.S. Lai, SAE
982623
28. “European Requirements for a Super High-Performance Diesel Oil”, D.C. Colbourne,
Truck Technology International, 1988, pp 108-111
29. “Engine Friction Lubricant Sensitivities : A Comparison of Modern Diesel and Gasoline
Engines”, R.I. Taylor, Esslingen 1998
30. “Fuel Savings with Multigraded Engine Oils in Medium-Speed Diesel Engines”,
Stauffer, Zahalka & Kornmann, Lubrication Engineering, 40, No. 12, pp 744-751
31. “Fuel Economy Improvement by Engine and Gear Oils”, W.J. Bartz, Proceedings of the
24th Leeds-Lyon Symposium on Tribology (published in Tribology for Energy
Conservation, Tribology Series, pp 13-24, 34, 1998, Elsevier, Editor : D.Dowson)
32. “Quantifying the Potential Fuel Economy Benefit of Transmission Lubricants”, D.
Simner, Esslingen 1998
33. “Effects of Valve Train Design Evolution on Motor Oil Anti-Wear Requirements”, J.C.
Bell, paper CEC97-EL02, 5th CEC International Symposium on the Performance
Evaluation of Automotive Fuels and Lubricants, 1997
34. “Engine Friction and Bearing Wear. III. The Role of Elasticity in Bearing Performance”,
E.H. Okrent, ASLE Transactions, 7, 1964, pp 147-152
35. “The Viscoelastic Properties of Multigrade Oils and Their Effect on Journal-Bearing
Characteristics”, B.P. Williamson, K. Walters, T.W. Bates, R.C. Coy & A.L. Milton, J.
Non-Newtonian Fluid Mech., 73, 1997, pp 115-126
36. “Piston Ring Oil Film Thickness - The Effect of Viscosity”, S.L. Moore, SAE 850439
37. “Influence of Piston Ring Gaps on Lubricating Oil Flow into the Combustion Chamber”,
K. Nakashima, S. Ishihara & K. Urano, SAE 952546
38. “Development and Field Test Performance of Fuel Efficient SAE 5W-20 Oils”, A.
Yaguchi & K. Inoue, SAE 952341
39. “Fuel Efficient Lubricants and the Effect of Special Base Oils”, T.E. Kiovsky, N.C.
Yates & J.R. Bales, J.STLE, 50, No. 4, p 307, 1993

These are the supporting texts for the document here: http://journals.pepublishing.com/content/0w75510650152h34/

 

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: shrooms
Originally Posted By: Bster13
Throttle position changed.

Originally Posted By: jstutz
Originally Posted By: shrooms
I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.


Something else changed. No way going to a w30 over w20 gave you >25% fuel mileage. Were you actually eating shrooms when you did this math. Just kidding but i think something else was involved there.


Nope, I'm light footed in fact. Original owner, car never been abused.

Here's a constant observation. When I fill up, I reset the trip odo every time. I make a round trip visit of 225-230 miles. When I'm done, the gas needle is BARELY passed lower from F. When it was on 30wt, it went a QUARTER down from F. Went back to 20wt and the mileage came back. Same driving habits, same tire pressure, etc. Whatever it is, I can't explain it. Just telling my experience.

.
sorry, there is an error somewhere. an oil can not make that big a difference.

 

[jorton]

5w-20 is real good oil and the Civic does not stress oil unless you tow heavy loads at high speeds ;-).

To improve hot idle oil pressure, switch to 30 weight after 120,000 miles for the summer oil change.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: shrooms
I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.
10 mpg? There in not a whole lot of difference between the 2 oil to make the difference sorry.

 

[shrooms]

Originally Posted By: crinkles
Originally Posted By: shrooms
Originally Posted By: Bster13
Throttle position changed.

I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.



Here's a constant observation. When I fill up, I reset the trip odo every time. I make a round trip visit of 225-230 miles. When I'm done, the gas needle is BARELY passed lower from F. When it was on 30wt, it went a QUARTER down from F. Went back to 20wt and the mileage came back. Same driving habits, same tire pressure, etc. Whatever it is, I can't explain it. Just telling my experience.

.
sorry, there is an error somewhere. an oil can not make that big a difference.


No error. Maybe my car is super special, but that's what happened.

 

[shrooms]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: shrooms
I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.
10 mpg? There in not a whole lot of difference between the 2 oil to make the difference sorry.


I'm telling you what happened. Sorry.

 

[chubbs1]

I know this thread is beat up but I can't resist. In NA the vehicles rated for 5w20 mainly for CAFE as mentioned. I use 5w20 in the winter and 5w30 in the summer for my Civic, I notice no deep cuts nor hefty savings in fuel economy either way. It is a preference of mine and the car runs fine. If you feel like using 5w30 go for it, it is more 'robust'. Honda's HTO-06 testing for oils is based on 5w30 and is used in their performance based vehicles. Obviously Honda feels you need a heavier weight if your engine needs the protection. SO USE WHAT YOU WANT. Between the 20/30 wgts. that is.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: shrooms
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: shrooms
I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.
10 mpg? There in not a whole lot of difference between the 2 oil to make the difference sorry.


I'm telling you what happened. Sorry.

We don't doubt it happened. We just suspect it wasn't just oil alone that caused that difference.

 

[sangyup81]

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
I know this thread is beat up but I can't resist. In NA the vehicles rated for 5w20 mainly for CAFE as mentioned. I use 5w20 in the winter and 5w30 in the summer for my Civic, I notice no deep cuts nor hefty savings in fuel economy either way. It is a preference of mine and the car runs fine. If you feel like using 5w30 go for it, it is more 'robust'. Honda's HTO-06 testing for oils is based on 5w30 and is used in their performance based vehicles. Obviously Honda feels you need a heavier weight if your engine needs the protection. SO USE WHAT YOU WANT. Between the 20/30 wgts. that is.

I'd like to add not all 30s are equal. The energy conserving ones which you usually see are in the lower end of the spectrum of 30s while the euro specs and HDEO 30s are in the upper end.

 

[chubbs1]

Originally Posted By: sangyup81
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
I know this thread is beat up but I can't resist. In NA the vehicles rated for 5w20 mainly for CAFE as mentioned. I use 5w20 in the winter and 5w30 in the summer for my Civic, I notice no deep cuts nor hefty savings in fuel economy either way. It is a preference of mine and the car runs fine. If you feel like using 5w30 go for it, it is more 'robust'. Honda's HTO-06 testing for oils is based on 5w30 and is used in their performance based vehicles. Obviously Honda feels you need a heavier weight if your engine needs the protection. SO USE WHAT YOU WANT. Between the 20/30 wgts. that is.

I'd like to add not all 30s are equal. The energy conserving ones which you usually see are in the lower end of the spectrum of 30s while the euro specs and HDEO 30s are in the upper end.

Very true, I should have said HTO-06 approved oils. If I use a 5w30 I use a Honda approved one.

 

[sangyup81]

Unfortunately, both of our views have a lot of theory behind them and I can only tell you what I've seen and read. The HTO-06 spec is for turboed engines like the one on the RDX. I'm sure Honda is not scared of 20 weight oils even in 120 degree weather. There's even talk of Honda designing engines to run on 0w10 one day. Since nobody makes it except some race oil makers, you'll end up buying the oil from Honda which would be good for their bottom line.

If I were loaded, I'd love to put a Honda Civic through 0w10 going by the OLM throughout it's life and see how long it can go. If I were right and it lasted beyond 200,000 miles, the comments of the shocked people would be worth it alone.

 

[Pesca]

For what I understand, the current line of Honda engines will be really happy running with 0W10 oils, but, as you said, people perception of this type of oil and availability prevented Honda recommending it.

 

[shrooms]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: shrooms
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: shrooms
I tried 5W30 and the mileage DROPPED to 30-32mpg. Went back to 5W20 and it's back to 40-42mpg.

These engines are very sensitive.
10 mpg? There in not a whole lot of difference between the 2 oil to make the difference sorry.


I'm telling you what happened. Sorry.

We don't doubt it happened. We just suspect it wasn't just oil alone that caused that difference.


Suspect no further. No oil adds, gas adds, SAME driving habits, different grade oil.

5W20 WINS......but I'll try 0W20 next OCI.