09 Nissan Altima 2.5 CVT Fluid change

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: jeff194
Quote:
I changed the CVT fluid on my friend's 2008 Altima 2.5 SL. It was very easy, and there was definitely a drain plug at the bottom of the CVT pan. There is no need to remove the pan.


I guess I'll take a better look at the pan, I didn't see a plug, but I've been wrong on occasion before. Thanks for all the replies. I'll probably stick with the NS-2, if the ENOS is red.



No problem. You definitely can't go wrong if you do frequent changes and stick with Nissan's fluid. The drain plug is kind of funny looking, and I believe it's right in the bottom of the pan (pointing down - but I could be wrong since it was a few months ago when we did the change). You will need a copper gasket for it, so be sure to grab one (or two) from your dealer before the change.

 

[barlowc]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
You will need a copper gasket for it, so be sure to grab one (or two) from your dealer before the change.

Is this gasket any different than the ones used on the oil pan drain plug? I thought I read someplace they were the same.

 

[il_signore97]

I think it might be the same as the oil drain plug gasket, but I don't remember well enough to say either way.

I do remember my friend having a real hard time with the dealers not knowing about the correct part though. I think he went to 3 or 4 dealers until he was satisfied with the response he got.

He also got told by a few dealers that the CVT fluid should never be changed. lol

 

[barlowc]

For a single drain/fill, how many quarts of fluid should I have on hand? I'll of course measure what comes out, refill with that amount, and check for the proper level. I'd rather not be short on fluid and have to make an extra trip (with another vehicle of course) or wait until Monday when the dealer is open. At the same time, I don't want to buy extra and have to mess around with returning unused fluid to the dealer.

 

[il_signore97]

I'll have to ask my friend... I don't remember if it was 4 or 5 quarts that we needed for a single drain and fill... Or when I grab the service manual from him, that will say the amount in it.

 

[barlowc]

The manual for a the 2007 Sentra lists the QR25DE as having an 8 3/4 quart capacity. But I can't imagine that all of that will come out. I thought I read somewhere else that it was in the 5 - 6 quart range.

 

[il_signore97]

I'm pretty sure it was just over half of the capacity that drains out. The rest is caught in the system in places such as the torque converter, cooler, lines, solenoids, etc.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: unDummy
Really, have you seen Nissan analyzing fluid?


Yes, they have, according to a few posts I've seen on nicoclub and a few other forums.

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
I highly doubt that they would be able to tell the difference. I guess you missed the part about the fluid being pitch black (worse than dirty engine oil). So if it was green in the NS2 bottles, it certainly doesn't stay green for very long in the CVT in service. Secondly, if they do pull samples, it will be primarily to check for contamination with conventional ATF, as I'm sure many people have inadvertently had their fluid changed improperly at a quick lube and had subsequent failure.


There is a chemical tracer that one can put in their fluid to use as an identifier. Hyundai does/did do this with their SP-III fluid. It can be detected in a lab analysis.

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Thirdly, I hypothesize that most of the CVT failures are due to the fact that people never changed their fluid, or not on time, and in combination with very high fluid temperatures within the unit. My friend and I have done a fair bit of investigation.

I have not seen any evidence of that. Care to share?

Nissan is now recommending that a fluid change be done every 60k under the most severe conditions or the fluid life monitor be checked. Most of the CVT failures are occurring at mileages where fluid condition will be a non-issue, so it's unlikely that fluid is the problem.

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
And best of all, you wouldn't believe the difference in ratio changes between the stock fluid and the Redline. It's like night and day, and my friend did purchase his car brand new. It never changed ratios so smoothly, both in manual mode with the preset ratios, or in auto mode.


Under normal driving, the one in my V6 doesn't do much as there's so much torque from the VQ. The engine rarely goes above 2000 rpm in normal driving, and there are very few ratio changes.

Originally Posted By: il_signore97

I doubt my friend will ever have the need to take advantage of Nissan's warranty if he continues his frequent maintenance and use of the Redline CVT fluid. This transmission is NOT exclusive to Nissan, and many manufacturers recommend their own fluid for the very same transmission. It's all marketing and scare tactics if you ask me.

The failures do seem to be an issue with the 4cyl CVTs, and they are usually due to a bearing issue. The failures seem to be occurring at a lower mileage, so I doubt they are fluid related. Hardware alone, does not dictate a fluid requirement FYI. Differences in software and applciation can/will change a fluid requirement as well.

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
^Exactly. They will only do one drain and fill at the dealer. They do not follow the FSM procedures, regardless of whether they're supposed to or not!

It depends on the model. Some models state to do a complete fluid exchange by way of a cooler line flush. This includes the Altima and some older Muranos. The new vehicles, such as the Murano and Maxima (IIRC), say one drain and refill is OK.

 

[il_signore97]

^My friend and I have monitored temperatures of the CVT fluid in his car (2008 Altima 2.5 SL - he bought it new in 2007). Measurements were taken prior to entering the stock fluid cooler in the radiator. Idling, the fluid stabilized at ~195 F. With a bit of easy driving, it was over 220 F. With any amount of spirited driving, it rose above that. With towing, it was near 250F. Take it for what it's worth, and I'm no transmission designer, but fluid temps that high on a regular basis with conventional fluid are not good. And I'm not pleased that it doesn't have a filter either. That can't be helping any.

I'm not sure what exactly has changed over the few model years since my friend's car was made. I wonder if Nissan has changed the capacity or programming of the CVT since then, or perhaps some small mechanical improvements, so my findings may not be inclusive to all models.

In addition to these findings, Nissan (at the time my friend bought his car) was NOT recommending any fluid changes. This was confirmed with his owner's manual, service guide, and several dealerships that frowned upon having the fluid changed. This was just before Nissan announced the extended warranty on these transmissions (so about 1.5 years ago I think?)... And to complicate things, my friend and I have access to a Nissan Consult II programmer through a friend at a local dealership. We checked his fluid life monitor value at 40,000 miles, and it was nowhere even remotely close to "needing" a fluid change. Again, I'm not sure if Nissan has rectified that "problem", but according to the rate my friend's car was going, it may have "needed" a fluid change by about 200,000 miles or more. Not practical if you ask me.

So Critic, I fully understand your points and they are perfectly valid, but something doesn't add up in my opinion. There have been a lot of failures, and I believe they are due to a combination of reasons. One can compare the failure rates of these CVT's with those exact same units in cars such as the Dodge Caliber (which does require regular fluid changes as outlined by Chrysler from the beginning of the introduction of these cars) and see if it differs at all. One can then more clearly identify if the issue is fluid/maintenance related or a design issue.

Regarding warranty, if it's a design issue, I would have no problem getting Nissan to cover the repair regardless of my choice of CVT fluid. My friend won't either. I use whatever I want and I've won several warranty disputes in the past in no time flat because the manufacturers couldn't prove that my maintenance caused the issues. In fact, the only warranty issues I've ever had were as a result of well documented common failures that have very little to do with maintenance, so it makes for a very weak argument on the part of the manufacturer to say that it was my maintenance regime when thousands of other vehicles still fail under completely different circumstances.

Also, the CVT in your V6 is the larger Jatco model (also in the Maxima), which is different from that in the 2.5L Altima / Dodge Caliber / Jeep Patriot / etc.

 

[barlowc]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Nissan (at the time my friend bought his car) was NOT recommending any fluid changes. This was confirmed with his owner's manual, service guide, and several dealerships that frowned upon having the fluid changed.

The Service Manual for my 2008 Coupe lists replacing the transmission fluid as part of the "Premium" maintenance at 30,000 miles. Replacing the transmission fluid isn't listed at any mileage for the "Schedule 1" and "Schedule 2" maintenance intervals.

 

[il_signore97]

^Your 2008 Coupe was probably made and purchased well after my friend purchased his 08 Sedan. He ordered his car in August 2007, and picked it up in late September. No mention of any CVT fluid changes in any of his literature.

 

[barlowc]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
^Your 2008 Coupe was probably made and purchased well after my friend purchased his 08 Sedan. He ordered his car in August 2007, and picked it up in late September. No mention of any CVT fluid changes in any of his literature.

Quite possible. My car was made in May 2008 and I purchased it in June 2008. The Service and Maintenance Guide PDF I have says August 2007 on the back of it. It's available here.

 

[il_signore97]

^I wonder if Nissan has added the CVT fluid change officially to the new vehicle documentation under one of the service schedules (service 1 and/or 2)

 

[barlowc]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
^I wonder if Nissan has added the CVT fluid change officially to the new vehicle documentation under one of the service schedules (service 1 and/or 2)

Doesn't look like it. The 2010 Service and Maintenance guide is available here.

 

[jeff194]

Has anyone done an 09. I cannot see a drain plug. I have a black steel pan, no plug in pan.

 

[barlowc]

So I was under my 2008 2.5 S Coupe yesterday when changing the oil, and I too could not find the CVT's drain plug. Certainly not anything that looks as obvious as the allen head plug in this thread from NissanClub.com.

I did, however, find a hex bolt with green paint on it.

The bottom of the picture is the front of the car. On the left, you can see the edge of the black pan. On the right, you can see where the exhaust bends down. Towards the bottom, you can see the hex bolt with green paint that I'm talking about. I know that manufacturers color code stuff like that to aid in identification. For example, the automatic transmission fluid fill plug on the Honda engine in our VUE has blue paint on it. Given that NS-2 fluid is green, I suspect this is the drain plug.

If this is it, it's not in a very good place. There's room to get a socket up there, but I can already see fluid getting on the exhaust pipe there. Certainly not something to do when that pipe is hot. I can probably use my Form-A-Funnel to cover it and redirect the fluid downwards into the drain pan.