MMO Marvel Mystery oil Brings down Piper Aircraft

[Bluestream]

Bottom line is too much will damage your engine, so add just enough to not ruin anything. A low enough dose won't hurt, but likely wont do anything anyway. Kinda like a drop of sulphuric acid in your Lemonade may improve the taste, but exceeding this amount may kill you.

Lycoming Service Instruction says explicitly any use of "engine Dopes" will void warranty.

 

[panthermike]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Bottom line is too much will damage your engine, so add just enough to not ruin anything. A low enough dose won't hurt, but likely wont do anything anyway. Kinda like a drop of sulphuric acid in your Lemonade may improve the taste, but exceeding this amount may kill you.

Lycoming Service Instruction says explicitly any use of "engine Dopes" will void warranty.


Too much of ANY additive can damage parts. ANY additive will void warranties. It seems obvious; user error.


Could be true about the 100:1 recommendation. But all I've seen on the bottle is 4oz/10 gallons. As someone mentioned, over 4 times the recommendation!

 

[MegaCorp]

Even at 4x the recommdation, it should not have destroyed the engine. No way I'm useing that stuff!

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Examination of the engine revealed low compression on all cylinders, ranging from 44/80 to 5/80. Air bypass was noted on all exhaust valves, and on two of the intake valves. The number two cylinder was removed, and evidence consistent with detonation was found on the surface of the piston, and on the valves.



Very low compression and piston and valve damage in such a short time? I think this engine had issues long before this flight.Who knows maybe someone thought the MMO would help improve engine performance and added it.

It is nothing more than an assumption and speculation that MMO was the root cause of this engine damage.
If I put MMO or anything else in a tired worn engine and the engine dies anyway its ludicrous to look at the fuel and factually conclude the red color of an additive was the cause of the engines demise, when in fact it was dead anyway.

 

[dwendt44]

A quart is 8x the recommended dose.
32 oz in a quart.

 

[Vikas]

Let us take it slowly.

18 Gallons in the tank; round it up to 20 gallons.
Recommended dosage 4 oz to 10 Gallons.
Recommended dosage 8 oz to 20 Gallons.
But he used a whole quart (32 oz)

Overdose by 4X

 

[Bluestream]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Examination of the engine revealed low compression on all cylinders, ranging from 44/80 to 5/80. Air bypass was noted on all exhaust valves, and on two of the intake valves. The number two cylinder was removed, and evidence consistent with detonation was found on the surface of the piston, and on the valves.



Very low compression and piston and valve damage in such a short time? I think this engine had issues long before this flight.Who knows maybe someone thought the MMO would help improve engine performance and added it.

It is nothing more than an assumption and speculation that MMO was the root cause of this engine damage.
If I put MMO or anything else in a tired worn engine and the engine dies anyway its ludicrous to look at the fuel and factually conclude the red color of an additive was the cause of the engines demise, when in fact it was dead anyway.


Aircraft engines are required to be overhauled long before they wear out. This is mandated by law and tt before overhaul is usually 2000 hrs. They are not like cars where you can drive then in any condition, and do your own repairs. This engine lost power in flight, to the point where the compression was below serviceable level, likely by continued use of the product in question as was determined by the NTSB.

Or, maybe you think this is a conspiracy against Turtle Wax??

 

[demarpaint]

No conspiracy against Turtle Wax. Someone didn't follow directions. IIRC MMO is used a lot by pilots of small aircraft. Since this is s first time case and the person who added it didn't follow directions I'd say is was user error.

 

[Spyder7]

Adding too much anything to the fuel has the potential to foul the plugs, reduce octane, and reduce compression. Those who have experimented with too TC-W3 and used too much in their ratio observed a reduction in power.

PEA is a proven safe product that is used by the auto service industry; yet I would not add four bottles of Regane or any other fuel system clean to my 13 gallon tank.

It is faulty logic to conclude that, because the product was misused by using a 4x OD of it, that the product must be bad.

Lithium is the oldest treatment for Bipolar Disorder and is still a front line treatment today. It has the lowest therapeutic index (the difference between the safe, effective dosage and the dosage which will kill 50% of those ingesting it, also called its LD50 in Behavioral Pharmacology) of any drug on the market today, and its level is often monitored by regular blood tests. Used at prescribed doses it is considered safe and effective; used at the 4x the prescribed dosage and the result can easily be fatal. This does not mean Lithium is ineffective or unsafe. It does mean it needs to be taken as prescribed.

-Spyder

 

[Trav]

I do know the difference between maintenance,just because something is mandated does not mean some small aircraft maintenance company followed the rules to the letter.
Can you state as fact this engine didn't start developing detonation issues for some other reason shortly after it was serviced? Aircraft mechanics can make mistakes too,we hear of commercial airliners failing in mid flight often enough.

You cannot state anything factual as to the maintenance or the use of MMO or anything else in this particular aircraft except for the fact that law prescribes a certain maintenance schedule.
There is a huge difference between FACT opinion and theory.IMO lacking any other evidence stating MMO was the root cause is pure theory.If the NTSB was so thorough did they take a like engine in good condition and run it with the MMO then do a teardown? It would seem to me that would be the only way to draw a conclusive determination.

 

[Techniker]

And the conclusion of 1% lard is founded? I know the people who graduated from my class and went into NTSB (and FEMA). Not the best of the best.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: Techniker
And the conclusion of 1% lard is founded? I know the people who graduated from my class and went into NTSB (and FEMA). Not the best of the best.


The interesting thing about that is that the amount is so small that it could indicate contamination from any number of possible sources (including the person adding it in). For the NTSB to describe it as an "ingredient" in MMO doesn't help their tarnished credibility.

-Spyder

 

[demarpaint]

Use as directed is the key here, and it certainly was not used as directed. In a car engine a slight loss of power from an OD is not going to have the same consiquences as in a plane. Pretty basic, someone screwed up.


As a side note Coumaden helps keep people alive and healthy when thinning of blood is needed. The same stuff is used to kill rats, and humans if taken in the wrong dose. Sometimes a little is good, too much deadly.

 

[Bluestream]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I do know the difference between maintenance,just because something is mandated does not mean some small aircraft maintenance company followed the rules to the letter.
Can you state as fact this engine didn't start developing detonation issues for some other reason shortly after it was serviced? Aircraft mechanics can make mistakes too,we hear of commercial airliners failing in mid flight often enough.

You cannot state anything factual as to the maintenance or the use of MMO or anything else in this particular aircraft except for the fact that law prescribes a certain maintenance schedule.
There is a huge difference between FACT opinion and theory.IMO lacking any other evidence stating MMO was the root cause is pure theory.If the NTSB was so thorough did they take a like engine in good condition and run it with the MMO then do a teardown? It would seem to me that would be the only way to draw a conclusive determination.


The investigation is over; the results are in. Some of you don't like the results.

At least now we know the proprietary ingredient is lard. So, now you can mix this stuff up yourselves in your garage and save a ton of money...

 

[demarpaint]

The results don't bother me, I don't fly planes, and if I did I'd read directions before I started messing with the fuel. As far as the lard content, I'll take that with a grain of salt. Maybe lard is the name for some kind of animal fatty ester, or "Bio Fat". Whale oil from the blubber of whales was once one of the finest oils, it could very well still be. Maybe lard is cutting edge

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: Trav
I do know the difference between maintenance,just because something is mandated does not mean some small aircraft maintenance company followed the rules to the letter.
Can you state as fact this engine didn't start developing detonation issues for some other reason shortly after it was serviced? Aircraft mechanics can make mistakes too,we hear of commercial airliners failing in mid flight often enough.

You cannot state anything factual as to the maintenance or the use of MMO or anything else in this particular aircraft except for the fact that law prescribes a certain maintenance schedule.
There is a huge difference between FACT opinion and theory.IMO lacking any other evidence stating MMO was the root cause is pure theory.If the NTSB was so thorough did they take a like engine in good condition and run it with the MMO then do a teardown? It would seem to me that would be the only way to draw a conclusive determination.


The investigation is over; the results are in. Some of you don't like the results.

At least now we know the proprietary ingredient is lard. So, now you can mix this stuff up yourselves in your garage and save a ton of money...


Again your opinion nothing more. Just because they could not find anything else does not provide conclusive evidence of anything. Now if they duplicated the situation and did a tear down then I would say the evidence is there and case closed but they apparently did not.

Its not that I don’t like the results it’s simply that just because the case is closed does not prove the culprit was MMO. They said it was from low compression due to detonation, I see nothing conclusive in their report specifically attributing this to MMO or anything else. The fact the fuel had a red tint is just one possibility.

You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone else but please don’t state things as though they are fact i.e. the headline “MMO Marvel Mystery oil Brings down Piper Aircraft” when in fact it is just an opinion or theory. Please differentiate between them.

 

[mechtech2]

If the fuel was actually red in color, then even the high ratio claimed was not as high as it really was. Who knows how strong the actual concentration was?
And what about possible sabotage?
Who knows?

One plane out of millions of air miles in countless aircraft?
User error, like most GA accidents.

 

[Loobed]

Originally Posted By: Techniker
And the conclusion of 1% lard is founded? I know the people who graduated from my class and went into NTSB (and FEMA). Not the best of the best.


Regardless of who I offend, there is one thing that is close to 100% true:

The Government Employs the Unemployable

 

[Loobed]

First of all I don't think MMO had anything to do with causing the plane to crash. It would be like blaming Coca Cola for causing a plane to crash because someone put it in the fuel tank. MMO does not belong in an aircraft.

As far as I know, you can not use anything in an airplane that is not FAA approved, and has a serial number or tracing number. I am pretty sure you have to log where and when you bought fuel, and the people selling the fuel have to keep track of when and to whom they sold the fuel to.

The statement from the Manager proves that someone at one time was putting MMO in the tank. (The Manager of Aerial Signs reported that he had told his pilots to not use Marvel Mystery Oil any more.)

My guess is someone started using MMO as a band-aid for a known engine problem, and it wasn't the MMO that caused the problem.

 

[expat]

Regardless, I can't see that that the wear/condition of that engine happened overnight, or over a short period of time.
I suspect that the engine was in 'Known poor' condition and that someone was trying to 'make things better' with a miracle in a can (in this case MMO was used, and perhaps other substances)
So much for following rigorous aviation maintenance procedures!
Also, that link was not much of a report, I would want to know one WHOLE LOT more before I were to draw any conclusions.