Same engine different oil - not just temperature

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Hi,
Bob - Shannow has touched on this issue with his answer. It is quite complex as I see it. He also mentions CD which is still used in may circles and CF only replaced it on most API dual rated PCMOs within the last several years

Engine Manufacturers will apply their Approved Lubricant requirements if they are available. In some Markets Approved lubricants may be unavailable and the API designations take priority - such as this from a Driver's Manual;

"Use only oils labelled as API SM/CF 5W-40 or higher. Only synthetic or semi-synthetic oils should be used. If in doubt consult your authorised (????????) Dealer for tested and Approved all season oils."

The reason that the CF Category is being discontinued is that a prime test - Caterpillar's IM-PC - has only limited availability. It is not that the Category is "obsolete" in real terms. It is likely that CF did not reamin the same during its 16 years lifespan. There was also no "read acress formula" in the case of viscosity changes due to base oil comixing in this Category - this would have made recertification costly I expect. The API allows comixing of Groups I, II, III under certain condtions

So when the API's CF becomes obsolete at the end of 2010 I suspect that some Blenders will not move to use CG-4 for instance (as SM/CG-4) - perhaps they will simply use the appropriate ACEA Category or simply sell as SM once CF expires

It seems commonplace for motorbike manufacturers to use obsolete API Categories too - I suspect this is because many Blenders don't qualify their products to JASO MA and etc!

For me ACEA is the correct approach - the standards are set by the engine manufacturers!
 
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Thanks Doug and Shannow.
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Charlie,
although I used that oil in the early days from 3,000km to 10,000km, I don't think it's Japanese small engines that it was aimed at, and I don't think it was a very good choice in hindsight, but I was trying to find something that met Nissan's requirements during break-in.

Most everybody else was running 20W-50 PCMO.

Here's some more information from Caltex on their oil designs.

1HD-T_pg1-caltex.jpg

1HD-T_pg2-caltex.jpg

1HD-T_pg3-caltex.jpg

1HD-T_pg4-caltex.jpg
 
Food for thought - we are have trouble with the 3.2 Triton's gunking up the intake.Mitsi recommend cleaning at 60,000km,and we are fitting this in if the customer will wear the cost (it's not a warranty job)I've just made a hot dip tank so the guys don't have to spend so long scraping and spraying with cleaner.It's not just a Mitsi problem,I know all the other common rail Japanese engines do it too.

With this thread now I'm thinking about oil - we have been using Fuchs Ultralube,being a good HDEO for fleet use,but not top of their range,it's CI-4,ACEA E3,E5,E7,A3,B3,B4.Pretty good you would think for utes getting a hard life on the farm.But looking on Fuchs site for a Triton recommendation,they recommend GT1 Pro,Super GTO and CFX...all SM/CF passenger car oils....and we use CFX as our bulk car oil.

Do you think the intake deposits from the EGR are an oil problem too? A downgrade to CF may cut down the deposits.We don't have any problems with the 2.5,although there aren't as many of them out there.The 3.2 has been dropped from the Triton,I suspect (I know) because it won't meet the latest Euro standards.

Have you driven the latest 2.5 Navara Shannow? The 2.5 Triton is 408Nm,now the Navara has gone to 450Nm,it's hard not to light the tyres up.
 
Silk,
I've not driven it.

It's a week old tomorrow, and I want him to scratch it up before I touch it...his last Navara ended up with a heavily scored roof. It's a D40, so the Intercooler is in front of the radiator, rather than over the engine in the D22.

I light up my old ZD30 heaps less with the EGR/intake swirl mod, as it's less light switch sensitive to light throttle acceleration.
 
Interesting. So it does turn out that Japanese engine design and oil requirements are similar to European.
However, it appears that piston designs are converging, from what I have read elsewhere. Particularly since engine mfgs are worldwide multinational companies. For example, Detroit Diesel's lates DD13, DD15 and DD16 engines have been introduced in the US but the company is owned by Mercedes/Daimler and they intend to use the motor worldwide. Their design was co-ordinated between NA, Europe and even Japan.
Also, on my US spec Unimog with the Mercedes 906 engine, designed in the late 90s, there's a sticker on the valve cover "use CI4+ oil only". The engine came with cooled EGR. I removed the EGR. Mercedes' worldwide fluid spec site
http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/downloadf.php?filename=en/Spec_223_2.pdf
specifies the best oil for the engine is MB228.5
CI4+ is mid detergent high dispersant
MB228.5 is high detergent mid dispersant
I decided with EGR (it tends to feed soot into the oil) gone I could go to 228.5 and enjoy the advantage of a longer drain interval while driving long distances in your country for the next 1.5 years.
I would guess that by specifying "no better than CF4" Nissan are trying to avoid super high dispersant (which are ashless) levels found in CI4 and CJ4 oils.
That Caltex discussion was very interesting.

Charlie
 
Hi,
Shannow - It was really not small diesels it was aimed at although the Japanese had severe oil thickening issues with their "unbreakable" precombustion engines in their era - very high soot levels at short OCIs and the like - hence JASO. I must say though that in the early 1980s we got out to 3000hr OCIs on Isuzus,Yanmar, Kubota and etc. using Castrol R synthetic (now 10W-60)

Steve S - Ever since I've been connected to BITOG (and much longer before that - since the mid 1960s) I have been promoting the use of Manufacturer mandated lubricants. This is especially so in regard to initial breakin and in most cases thereafter too!

This wasn't done as I "thought it was a good idea" - it is done because of a wealth of experience in this area. However, we have many "experts" on BITOG that know better. Some even change the engine's lubricant in their new engine before a point especially prescribed by the Manaufacture - if they only knew the potential consequences.............

It is always best to use Manufacture specified lubricants of the correct viscosity - conservative? yes! - but typically a faultless situation too! Engine Manufacturers DO know what they are talking about!!
 
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Looking at Mitsubisi's recommendations for their latest engines,they just say CD or above.So they are not saying this is our latest high tech common rail engine,so use the best modern oil,they are saying it doesn't matter,just pick up something next time your are at the supermarket.Looking at the oil companies recommendations - they say to use CI-4 in my old 1989 Pajero 4D56,but for the new 4D56 with dohc and common rail they think an oil standard from 1955 is just fine.Are these engines so good that it doesn't matter what you put in them?
 
I'd guess that they are saying run anything that's reasonable available and current, and it will do the job.

Most PCMOs are CF at least, and most diesel oils are better.
 
Maybe they know more than we know (hope I don't get a late night visit from the BITOG heavies) All our fussing over oils,and really ''she'll be right mate'' is spot on.
 
Also remember that Mitsubishi have gone to 15,000 OCIs even in their diesel fleet.

That decision was really for longevity, and certainly swayed my brother's company to move almost entirely to Mitsubishi, and less time off the road.

Being able to run whatever's in the shed lubricant wise would entice a few more people their way I'm sure.
 
I am still absolutely flabbergasted how a modern diesel can use a CF oil (assuming it has no other more modern non-API specs also).
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Part of why I picked it.


Indeed. But it's not a CF-only oil. It has one of the more modern non-API specs I mentioned.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Also remember that Mitsubishi have gone to 15,000 OCIs even in their diesel fleet.


Yes,from 5,000km on my old 4D56,to 15,000km on the new one.Both engines (4M41,4D56)use the same dual element filters as they did 2 decades ago,but Toyota have dropped the big oil filters and gone to a puny Z418 on the 1KZ.Mitsi have really stepped up their warranty,10 year/160,000km powertrain,5 year/130,000km new car.And having just one bulk oil tank to fill would be an advantage.The big dealer in the closest city uses Mitsubishi MSL in everything,even the diesels,and it's not that expensive either.I have no idea what MSL really is (nothing at all on the bottle) but is pretty thin,maybe a 10/30 or less.
 
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