2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil

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I have a yamaha banshee, I was running klotz supertechniplate, But I got a free bottle of amsoil dominator and I mixed it at the same 32:1 ratio, It seems to have alittle more kick in HP using it, The base oils themselfs the amsoil seems thinner than the klotz, The klotz is said to be good at protection since it conatins 20% castor bean oil 80% synthetic, AMSOIL is of course 100% Synthetic, Its also $2 cheaper a qt for amsoil. Make the change? Does it run cleaner and protect just as good as the klotz? Anyone have any input about the dominator oil? I will not run anything leaner than 32:1, Just will not do it even though they suggest 50:1. My interest is the cleaner burning so I don't get unburnt oil driping out where the pipes attach to the engine block and perhaps even better protection than what I already had.
 
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Super techni with the beanol is a [censored] good product. The straight benol is a killer product I run it in my 88 250R. I do feel it's better then dominator and you can't beat the smell :)

Simply said Klotz can be mixed with alky or nitro and Amsoil cannot. i have had lengthy talks with amsoil about it and they just wont formulate for it.

Dominator will be cleaner burning since is doesnt have benol in it, but I'm willing to bet you notice a power drop also. Benol is a supurb protectant. 32:1 will yield drops out of the exhaist no matter what. Likely the packing is already saturated anyway
 
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I always ran Klotz in my suzuki quadracers and when it came top end time they were always nice and clean inside. You gotta love the smell of the klotz my friends always wanted to ride behind me.
 
Don't let these guys talk you out of Dominator. It's a great oil.

Suggestion: A better oil than anything listed here (plus still get all the negative effects of castor) - You can buy pure castor oil and put some in your Dominator/fuel premix like I do to get the nice smell.
 
Yeah I here alot of people don't like the interceptor since it has no dye, Hard to tell how good its mixed, The dominator mixed nice and red, Yeah the klotz has a smell that almost makes me want to drink it from the bottle, However klotz is $12 a QT where I can find it, AMSOIL I can get for $9, But alot of people swear by klotz. Where my main problem is, Is that at 32:1 I want a cleaner burn and still off the same level or better protection, 32:1 is what Banshee owners run at, Yamaha says 24:1 with yamalube and 20:1 with everything else which is insane.
 
Yeah I don't know quads that well. I'm a born and raised snowmobiler. That's my two stroke experience. I said don't use the Interceptor because it is pure garbage. Amsoil's worst product by far. Just my .02
 
Without doubt, you'll get a cleaner burn with Dominator, and it is a superior product. As much as I love the Klotz smell, I'd say go with the Dominator, you'll see cleaner insides when you take it apart.
 
Noted above. Dieseltech is right, There is nothing overkill for one of the badest quads ever made. I could of had a [censored], Opps sorry yamaha raptor 700 but was not interested at all. I will run 5 gallons of dominator through it probably every so often. I done some more research since this post and find some concern in alot of people and AMSOIL stating its for racing only where engines get torn down frequently and not recommended for long use in outboards. I definetley noticed a power increase with the dominator, I think the trade off will be every 5th 5gallon jug I use I will use one 5 gallon jug with dominator to clean things up abit. This should be a good routine.
 
Originally Posted By: Slippery_Pete
Yeah I don't know quads that well. I'm a born and raised snowmobiler. That's my two stroke experience. I said don't use the Interceptor because it is pure garbage. Amsoil's worst product by far. Just my .02


I have used interceptor past 10 years on every 2 cycle I have.
2004 KTM 125SX
1997 Kawasaki ZXI 1100cc jetski I usually run marine AMSOIL mixed at 100:1 but many pinches i used interceptor
Stihl Weed eater,chainsaw
Backpak blower
no failures all eguiptment except jetski mixed at 50:1

Javier
 
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Given your two options listed, stick with the Klotz. But if you want an even better oil, get some A747 from Castrol. There is not a better oil for developing power. There are better oils at controlling wear. There are better oils at controlling deposits. There is not a better oil for making power, especially at higher concentrations (ie. 24:1).
 
been in radio control trucks for about a year. 2 cycle 3.3 traxxas engine. been mixing my own fuel for a long time. been using klotz benol castor oil. no trouble
 
Originally Posted By: beanoil
Given your two options listed, stick with the Klotz. But if you want an even better oil, get some A747 from Castrol.


Klotz Supertechniplate is very similar to A747 at about half the cost. Probably both are the best you can get, period. Good read here on castor and synthetics.

CASTOR OIL
By Bert Striegler.


Back in 1983 there was quite a controversy in magazines about the tests that were necessary to measure the "lubricity" of various oils that might be useful in engines. Castor oil was used as the benchmark, but it was obvious no one knew why this was so. They apparently got a lot of info on various industry tests of lubricants, but these were really designed for other purposes. This was my answer. I will remind you that I was a lubrication engineer and not a chemist, but I drew my chemical info from Bob Durr, the most experienced lubricant scientist in the labs at Conoco.

Bob worked with my group on many product development projects and I can tell you that he is one smart hombre! Small changes were made in the text, but surprisingly very little has really changed since this was originally written. Here goes with the answer:

"I thought I would answer your plea for more information on castor oil and its "film strength", which can be a very misleading term. I have never really seen a satisfactory way to measure the film strength of an oil like castor oil. We routinely use tests like the Falex test, the Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test, but these are primarily designed to measure the effect of chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These "EP" agents have no function in an IC engine, particularly the two-stroke model engine types.

You really have to go back to the basics of lubrication to get a better handle on what happens in a engine. For any fluid to act as a lubricant, it must first be "polar" enough to wet the moving surfaces. Next, it must have a high resistance to surface boiling and vaporization at the temperatures encountered. Ideally the fluid should have "oiliness", which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets these rather simple requirements in an engine, with only one really severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will work.

Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride of ricinoleic acid, [ (CH3(CH2)5CH(OH)CH2CH=CH(CH2)7COO)3(OC)3H5 ], which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position and a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses one molecule of water and becomes a "drying" oil. Another look at the molecule. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidly as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms ever-heavier "oils" that are rich in esters. These esters do not even begin to decompose until the temperature hits about 650 degrees F (343 deg C). Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at these elevated temperatures - in other words, as the temperature goes up, the castor oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the end byproduct of this process is what we refer to as "varnish." So, you can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor oil with polyalkylene glycol like Union Carbide's UCON, or their MA 731. This mixture has some synergistic properties, or better properties than either product had alone. As an interesting sidelight, castor oil can be stabilized to a degree by the addition of Vitamin E (Tocopherol) in small quantities, but if you make it too stable it would no longer offer the unusual high temperature protection that it did before.

Castor oil is not normally soluble in ordinary petroleum oils, but if you polymerize it for several hours at 300 degrees F (149 deg C), the polymerized oil becomes soluble. Hydrogenation achieves somewhat the same effect.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar and has a great affinity for metal surfaces.

It has a flash point of only 445 degrees F (229 deg C), but its fire point is about 840 degrees F (449 deg C)! This is very unusual behavior if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 degrees F (176-204 deg C)and have a fire point of only about 550 degrees F (288 deg C), or slightly higher.

Nearly all of the common synthetics that we use burn in the combustion chamber if you get off too lean.

Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more and more complex polymers as the temperature goes up. Most synthetics boil on the cylinder walls at temperatures slightly above their flash point. The same activity can take place in the wrist pin area, depending on engine design.

Synthetics also have another interesting feature - they would like to return to the materials from which they were made, usually things like ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, or other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. We call this phenomena "unzippering" for obvious reasons.

So, you have a choice. Run the engine too lean and it gets too hot. The synthetic burns or simply vaporizes, but castor oil decomposes into a soft varnish and a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricity.

Good reason for a mix of the two lubricants! ( " 927 " is a mix as described here!)

In spite of all this, the synthetics are still excellent lubricants if you know their limitations and work within those limits. Used properly, engine life will be good with either product. Cooked on a lean run, castor oil will win every time. A mix of the two can give the best of both worlds.

Like most things in this old life, lubricants are always a compromise of good and bad properties. Synthetics yield a clean engine, while castor oil yields a dirty engine, but at least now you know why! "

Bert Striegler

Bert was the Sr. Research Eng'r. (ret.) at Conoco Oil Co.
 
Interceptor allows for very easy starting in my trimmers and chainsaw with more power than a petroleum oil.Mixed at 50:1 the Interceptor is great.Next I plan to try the klotz with20% castor oil.One of my saws has an aluminum cylinder bore and the extra protecttion of castor oil should help with reducing wear.
 
I would like to play the devils advocate here and I am also a diehard Amsoil user for many years in everything I own from my motorcycles to my drag race engines and have found nothing better. A while back I found a site called Scamsoil and figured it was just some hack site doing nothing more than bashing synthetics and Amsoil specifically. What I found was a pretty knowledgeable guy taking all comers and countering their comments and claims with facts and educated answers. Below you can read the reply I got when I emailed him about his take on the differences between castor bases oils and Amsoil synthetic oil and the best oil to run in my 95 Honda CR500.


Quote:
Brian Dobben - BSMET
DMT Technical


1.
Without a doubt, the oil industry, the "lubrication engineers", and the OEM's are dominated by mindsets created by two groups with agendas: the petroleum oil companies, and the OEM's. The oil companies want everyone to buy petroleum products. The OEM's want their products to last as long as most consumers think they should without breaking down, with warranty periods set shorter than that. For that reason, the petro companies have invested a great deal in their controlled versions of educating mechanics and dealers and engineers. In the glaring history of this situation, it's crazy to think that anyone can get an accurate picture without considering the perspective of the company considered to be the worldwide standard in synthetic lubrication. So I applaud you for wanting to investigate Amsoil.


2.
The API's agenda is written clearly for all to see, that they exist to promote petroleum interests. And it's very telling that their API starburst certification licensing program specifically excludes high performance lubricants, certifies only to bare minimum performance levels, and does not provide ANY method of rating the comparative performance of oils - even though the ASTM tests clearly provide measured values. You can do a search on "Amsoil Scam" and read a lot more I've written on this, in an extensive Q & A you'll see listed on my main website. This is a direct link to the page: http://www.ultimatesyntheticoil.com/Scamsoil_Skeptics.htm


3.
The main key to understanding the discussion of castor oil is the word "esters". Adding castor oil was, a decade or two ago, a good way to get improved performance in some 2-cycle applications where there weren't good products engineered yet. But as he notes, castor oil has a lot of content downside that can get you into trouble. Esters are a large group of lubricants that provide quite a range of performance in different lubrication applications. There is real value in getting certain advantages of specific forms of esters in engine lubrication, but the value is maximized when you deliberately engineer that chemistry so that you maximize your advantages while avoiding or minimizing any of the downside. And THAT is the thinking behind many of Amsoil's formulations, and a key to their dramatic superiority when compared to other synthetics. That is also the reason behind having multiple four-cycle oils, multiple diesel oils, and multiple 2-cycle oils: you optimize the performance of both the base stock and the additive package for the application(s) you are targeting. Many AMSOIL products have a small optimized amount of a pure ester type(s) whose performance has been selected as being nearly ideal for that particular application, bringing advantages while avoiding disadvantages.


For example, taking this overview down to where you "live" with your CR500... here's my newest website in development:

http://www.vtwin-hd.com/d.cgi/1220579/home.html

If you go there and click on the left hand button for "2 Cycle Oil", it takes you to a page comparing and listing the different Amsoil oils. You can click the link on each one for "more information", but even just reading the overviews you can understand what these oils are targeted for. The reason for these various formulations is that there are several ranges within 2-cycle applications for ring and piston loading, ring temperatures, combustion temperatures, exhaust valve temperatures, rpm range, and primary load/rpm use. Most synthetic companies make one product and imply that it's the best for every 2-cycle application, while the truth is that it's probably a performance compromise in all of them. All of that means that the AMSOIL product descriptions will give you a good idea of what's most likely to be the best formulation for your bike.

But it also means that depending on how your bike is "set up" and how you use and ride it, either Interceptor or Dominator could work the best for you. Either one WILL work, and if I were you and the product descriptions don't clearly address it for you, I would try both of them and see which one seems to perform best overall for your riding in the aspects that are most important to you. But having said that, if you run very high rpms at full load in a racing application with a highly modded engine, that's where Dominator could shine brightly for you.

For someone to say that an Amsoil 2-cycle product is "junk", simply means that the one they tried for that "bad experience" application wasn't a good match for the engine's needs in how it was being used. For example, the Canadian Forrestry Service standardized several years ago on Amsoil's Sabre Professional 100:1 for their chainsaws, and the performance in those applications is way beyond anything in the market, leading to lower fuel costs and tremendous increases in the service life... because that's exactly what it was designed for. However, that doesn't mean that the product will work well in a dirt bike, a snowmobile, or a jetski.

The fact of the matter is that over the last 5 years especially, Amsoil has completely taken over most of the competitive racing venues. Xcross, Motocross, Snocross, Champ boat, Offshore, Diesel competitions... you name it. And of course, Daytona Bike Week and Sturgis. It's not a matter of spending advertising dollars, but of Amsoil realizing that there is real value in them sponsoring these segments where 95% of all the competitors are using AMSOIL lubricants.

I've subscribed to Diesel Power mag since about its' third issue, and I found it interesting that in their coverage of last year's national Diesel Power Challenge, they happened to mention that every competitor in the event was running Amsoil. I find it interesting that the recognized national expert in high performance Corvette engines openly recommends Amsoil without advertising compensation. I find it interesting... well, I could go on for a long time.

I guess in concluding, I would make two points. First, a true synthetic is always better than a petroleum product. Second, when comparing performance among synthetics, only superior engineering will produce the superior results: there is nothing accidental about it, and the effectiveness of sex-based, ego-based or confidence-based marketing campaigns adds nothing to performance. For decades, the picture has never changed. Only Amsoil publishes their performance against competitors, and only Amsoil is constantly updating formulations to include the latest performance improvements in additive and basestock sciences.


I guess it all comes down to what you trust and why. For me I won't use anything but a true synthetic that is tried and tested in nearly every motorsport known to man.
 
Originally Posted By: Slippery_Pete
I said don't use the Interceptor because it is pure garbage. Amsoil's worst product by far.

Can you explain with some sort of posted documentation you could show as why this is??

we run Interceptor exclusively in our Yamaha built 780cc ported race engine and not one lubrication issue.

i also run it in my personal sleds again not one lube related failure,piston skirts always well with in tolerance upon tear downs and inspections.

not a thing wrong with interceptor fine oil so you may want to stop spreading false information.
 
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