Energy Conserving in a Bike

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So, I know all about EC being not recommended for a wet clutch. I have a couple questions though...

1- Other than clutch slippage potential, what harm can an EC oil do in a bike? Does it harm the clutch system even if you experience no slip?

2- Are the EC oils, take Penzzoil Ultra versus any "motorcycle" oil as an example, better in terms of strictly wear protection?

I was just wondering if one were to run EC oil in their bike and not experience any clutch slip, would the EC oil be better wear protection in every other sense and not pose any other risk to the clutch system or engine components?

All I ever read is the same statements about this topic but I still don't understand the details. Thanks!
 
From the anecdotes I've read, if one had a clutch slip problem with oil "A" it stops when switched to "B". I rode my virago for a week with a misadjusted clutch, noticed the slip, fixed it, none the worse for wear.

Have also read of clutches contaminated with gas (leaky petcock/carb), water, etc which permanently ruins them. Something organic swells/ flakes off.

If your gearbox runs the same oil you want a good HTHS rating, EC deliberately shears, a couple strikes against it already.
 
of the manuals i have looked at, they said to not use EC-II oils.

now, i challenge you to find an oil that has the EC-II rating on the bottle here in the usa.

that said, why risk an EC rated oil?
 
sunruh, that's what I was wondering...if there were no clutch slip problems, would there be a wear protection advantage from using an EC oil? Since they are so "slippery" apparently, although that could be risky for good clutch performance, wouldn't it be more protective in terms of engine wear? If the clutch was not an issue in play, would you use an EC oil or an MC wet clutch approved oil?

Again, I'm not making any assertions because I don't know....maybe I'm not explaining it right?
 
Well, i'm a member of the 'HDEO In A Bike' fan club myself. In terms of wear protection, the Diesel Certifications (wear is a big one) are 5x more rigorous in testing requirements than what PCMO's or most Motorcycle Oils go through.

With that being said, if you are looking for the best wear protection - that's the direction i'd go (and do). If you want a Synthetic, then Rotella T6 (5w40) is hard to beat and showing some very nice UOA's in relation to wear metals. Of course, Delo and Delvac are very good as well.

Oh yeah, with HDEO's you don't have to worry about clutch slippage either.
 
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Originally Posted By: Scooter_man
Well, i'm a member of the 'HDEO In A Bike' fan club myself. In terms of wear protection, the Diesel Certifications (wear is a big one) are 5x more rigorous in testing requirements than what PCMO's or most Motorcycle Oils go through.

With that being said, if you are looking for the best wear protection - that's the direction i'd go (and do). If you want a Synthetic, then Rotella T6 (5w40) is hard to beat and showing some very nice UOA's in relation to wear metals. Of course, Delo and Delvac are very good as well.

Oh yeah, with HDEO's you don't have to worry about clutch slippage either.


Sometimes lubrication solutions are so easy and straight forward that the best choices are often overlooked because people aren't willing accept the well known fact that HDEO is probably the best bang for the buck when it comes to motorcycle engine lubrication.
 
exactly. the CI-4+ oils have all passed the Allison wet clutch test. that is the difference between CI-4 and CI-4+
the plus means they passed the Allison test.
not that i've spent great time on it, but i'm not sure that the CJ-4 rating includes the + (plus) of the ci-4 rating. and if not, may explain why the ci-4+ beat the cj-4 in all of my tests.

once again, the HDEO's are made to handle the big motors that bring all of our food and clothes and goods to us all via tractors and semi's. we trust our very lives to HDEO's, why not in your bike?
 
I'm already a convert to Rotella in my bikes. I guess I didn't really get to my real point of confusion very well- I apologize, maybe it's the heat
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Maybe the opposite example would get to my question more directly. Would Rotella T6 out perform Pennzoil Ultra in terms of wear in a PC application? Ultra is $9 more expensive at Walmart than T6..So, maybe I should just go with T6 in my PC and save the money?

My understanding WAS that energy conserving oils were more "slippery" and had "better" additives which made them bad for wet clutches but excellent at providing wear protection- better, or so I thought, than oils approved for a wet clutch. I assumed that oils that were safe for a wet clutch allowed more friction(so the clutch wouldn't slip), and thereby less wear protection for the engine from the very thing that makes the oil better for the clutch- kind of a situation where you can't have your cake and eat it too. What is the trade off in engine protection for having a wet clutch safe certification?

I do use Rotella, soon to be T6 after the break in, in my current bike. Again, I'm just trying to learn more about it and I do appreciate the replies!
 
Quote:
i challenge you to find an oil that has the EC-II rating on the bottle here in the usa.


That's an old classification. These are all called
"Energy Conserving" oils now.
As I understand it, most cycles spec'd 10W-40 or heavier oil for many years. A couple of years ago, Honda, in particular, started calling for 10W-30 for some of their cycles. Of course THEY offer a 10W-30 that works. But it causes/caused a bit of confusion in the general cycling public.
MOST common 10W-30 oil is 'Energy Conserving'. So don't ues them.
High mileage oils (some of them) are not E.C. oil; Mobil-1 EP oil is not E.C. either.
Shell Rotella 10W-30 is not E.C..
So the bottom line is; if you want to run a xW-30 oil, READ carefully or ask first.
Botique oils offer 10W-30 cycle oil if you want to spend that kind of money.
My 2¢
 
I have read posts where users claimed to have clutch slippage using some automotive oils.

Could this have been due to mis adjustment or was it the oil.

I guess that is a question we can't answer but based on that I stick with no energy conserving oils.

Not sure I see the advantage to use energy conserving oils in a motorcycle.
 
Yagenta, wear protection requirements for EC PCMO's and HDEO's are completely different and as I said above - 'In terms of wear protection, the Diesel Certifications (wear is a big one) are 5x more rigorous in testing requirements than what PCMO's or most Motorcycle Oils go through.'

So with that being said and agreed upon above - why would you want to risk clutch slippage by using an oil that didn't go through anywhere near the wear protection testing and certification that HDEO's go through. Not to mention, shared sumps will shear the heck out of most oils. I want something in my bike that is designed to be tough and used in extreme conditions.

If the bike does not have a shared sump (wet clutch), then it wouldn't matter if the oil as EC or not in terms of clutch slippage.
 
Quote:
Could this have been due to mis adjustment or was it the oil.

My guess is that it's a bit of both.
Some MFGs increased the size or power output of an engine without upgrading the clutch to match.
In a few cases, the clutch was of marginal design to begin with. Both situations result in clutch slippage under certain conditions.
Add a marginal oil and 'bingo'.

For many years, auto 10W-40 with the standard oil called for by Japanese cycle makers. Clutches were strong, bullet proof and didn't give problems unless abused.
Now, in the drive for compact, lightweight models, clutches are closer to marginal, oils are 'slipperier', and riders still abuse the whole package.

My 2¢
 
Originally Posted By: sunruh
exactly. the CI-4+ oils have all passed the Allison wet clutch test. that is the difference between CI-4 and CI-4+
the plus means they passed the Allison test.
not that i've spent great time on it, but i'm not sure that the CJ-4 rating includes the + (plus) of the ci-4 rating. and if not, may explain why the ci-4+ beat the cj-4 in all of my tests.

once again, the HDEO's are made to handle the big motors that bring all of our food and clothes and goods to us all via tractors and semi's. we trust our very lives to HDEO's, why not in your bike?


There seems to be some confusion there, the API CI-4+ spec has nothing to do with wet clutches. The applicable spec is Allison C4 which is not an API spec.

The reliable way to tell if an oil meets Allison C4 (That is an Allison spec for wet clutches and gears type transmissions) is to check the Allison C4 Approved fluids list.

https://fdlrd.swri.org/Allison/ApprovedFluidsList.aspx?Id=1

I've been on the Allison C4 spec for wet clutch motorcycles bandwagon since about 1986. If using a lower priced HDEO oil instead of a MC oil bothers anyone, send me $5.00/quart to make you feel better about the price and in return I will send you a picture of a motorcycle to stick on the HDEO oil bottle to make you feel even better. Specify whether you have an air cooled V-Twin or a regular motorcycle, I have different pictures for the two categories.
 
"If using a lower priced HDEO oil instead of a MC oil bothers anyone, send me $5.00/quart to make you feel better about the price and in return I will send you a picture of a motorcycle to stick on the HDEO oil bottle to make you feel even better. Specify whether you have an air cooled V-Twin or a regular motorcycle, I have different pictures for the two categories."

That's priceless!
 
I am not so much interested in motorcycle oil versus HDEO...I already use and have good experiences with HDEO. I'm just trying to find out what, if any, advantage, in terms of wear protection, an oil has to give up to be safe for a wet clutch.

I hear that HDEO goes through much more rigorous wear testing than your average PC oil. But lets take, as an example, T6 versus Pen Ultra...both are high quality synthetics, one is safe for a wet clutch, one is not. What is T6 giving up with it's add pack that makes it safe for a wet clutch? Does the fact that T6 gives up some component for wet clutch certification mean that it is not as wear protective as it would be if it were energy conserving? Or, does T6 provide the same level of wear protection with just DIFFERENT additives that still perform as well as those in ULTRA but allow the wet clutch to also hook up normally?

I'm having a hard time getting the idea that one oil is more "slippery" and will not work in a wet clutch and another oil allows more friction for the wet clutch to operate correctly (assuming this would be less "slippery") yet BOTH provide the same kind of wear protection when it comes to the engine components. It seems counter intuitive.

I'm not going to use an EC oil in my bike instead of HDEO because it isn't designed for it. However, I still want to understand the differences and how that translates to real world engine protection. Do guys with MC's with dry clutches use synthetic PC energy conserving oil or wet clutch safe oils (because they are the best without regard to wet clutch or not) ?
 
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What is strange about about that Allison C-4 list is I found Delo on there which isn't JASO MA but not Rotella and Valvoline blue both of which are JASO rated. I can understand an oil being C-4 rated but not JASO, but if it's JASO rated seems it should be C-4. JASO is the more relevant rating for a bike anyway. Maybe I did search the site good.
 
I understand your question as to does EC oils have less wear, or does being non-EC give up something wear wise. Not a lot of info out there about EC. From what I can tell the friction modifiers of EC oils can theoretically reduce wear very slightly maybe immeasurably since they reduce friction. But in reality I don't think you are giving up anything because non-EC oils can be formulated to have even lower wear than EC oil. Also with an EC oil I think you are stuck with a 30 grade which may increase wear where a 40 grade is called for.

I'm thinking if you could add the EC FM to any oil it would maybe slightly decrease where, but in reality most EC oils are not the best wear reducing oils anyway because they usually have less AW additives and are limited by grade.
 
That actually did help! Thx...I wish I could put a 40 weight in the Accord because I'd just switch over to T6 and save some $$$$ ! Thanks for the explanation.
 
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