Endlessly debating ATF with myself

[fishbone]

Both my 2005 Legacy GT 5EAT and the wife's Mini Cooper S 6EAT are due for an ATF change. The Subaru uses ATF HP stuff, likely the same as Nissan Matic J since the tranny is built by Jatco. The Mini unit is an Aisin-Warner 6EAT that, from what I have read around, uses the same or similar ATF as Toyota Type-IV. Mini specs JWS-3309 fluid. I contacted both Subaru of America and Mini and of course they recommend their own fluids. The more I look around, the more I see other brands having full synthetic universal fluids: BG, Amsoil, Red Line, Valvoline, etc. Amsoil has been proven to work great in the Subaru 5EAT by Import Performance Trans. These guys rebuild race trannies and use nothing but Amsoil and we have yet to hear about a failed 5EAT transmission.

However, I am still nervous about using something other than the "proven tried and true" stuff based on what I have researched online in fear that it would ruin stuff. So here is where I am at. Do I cough up the dough for an Amsoil flush, which would cost me $150 in fluid alone, or should I just go with a Valvoline Max Life synthetic ATF flush, which costs $130 everything included?
Valvoline clearly states their ATF works for Subaru, I have to ask about Mini since it is not on their list. But ultimately, of course if something was to fail, they would monkey their way out of it and say it's because of the driver. So who do you believe? The manufacturer or the lubricating guys.

 

[Bill in Utah]

I just went and bought the Subaru fluid (at the time) from the stealership. Got the case at a lower price since it was either Amsoil (who at the time would not say for sure that their ATF would be 100% okay but "should" work) or Subaru.

Now that Valvoline says their Maxlife (which I don't care for and of this HM marketing stuff) is rated for ATF-HP then I'd use it.

Valvoline would not risk putting on their product that it meets xxx unless it did. They are not in the business of law suits or replacing transmissions.

Take care, bill

 

[fishbone]

That is kind of what I am reasoning but I'm still reticent in using it for whatever reason. I guess I am trying to make myself sleep better at night. The Subaru is modded too, has a modded valve body on it, runs great, shifts firm, so the wrong ATF would probably show signs of weird performance. I guess I am just trying to get myself to sleep better at night, I'd hate for [censored] to go wrong only because I tried to save a hundred bucks.
I am continuing to read threads about this stuff, also contacted Valvoline because their list of OK'd applications does not seem to include anything related to the Mini or JWS-3309.

 

[RF Overlord]

fishbone, JWS3309 is Toyota T-IV. More correctly, Mobil makes a fluid called 3309, which is also sold as Ford Premium Automatic Transmission Fluid, Toyota T-IV, and a couple of other OEM fluids for Volvo and Mazda. Since Mobil is the only supplier, use any of them with confidence.

 

[clutchless]

I have a 2008 Mini Cooper S with the Aisin (a Toyota subsidiary) automatic transmission and have been looking into changing the fluid. North American Motoring dot com, the Mini site has some information, some posted by me. You can get Toyota T-IV fluid at a Toyota dealer for under $5 a quart. Or, pay Mini $12 a quart for the same stuff in a different bottle. Studying posts here, many Toyota owners have used Redline D4 ATF instead of T-IV with great success. I am convinced that is the way to go if you want to make it last longer. The Aisin has no cooler lines that carry fluid, they carry coolant. A flush would have to involve a pan drop. You can do a couple of drain and fills. The car has a strange system. It has a drain, overflow pipe.

Here is a link to the NAM threadwith pictures. http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/drivetrain-cooper-s/178242-mcsa-tranny-fluid-change.html

 

[clutchless]

i just learned that VW, which uses the same Aisin automatic in some models, they call it the 09G (Tiptronic), now has called for fluid changes every 40,000 miles. Here is the post from a VW forum:
I bought a 2010 Golf 2.5 with the 6sp Tiptronic (my first ever automatic, 4th Golf) in February. I've never bought into the whole "lifetime tranny fluid" thing, so I had planned to change it myself at 40k anyway. Last week I got a letter from VW. Hmm..."what's this" I wondered. Maybe a thank-you card? Maybe some coupons for accessories? So, I opened the letter and saw something I never thought I'd see: a supplement to my owner's manual saying to CHANGE THE TRANSMISSION FUILD! Here's the text of the letter:
"USA Maintenance for all VW models. Additional maintenance information for 2009 and 2010 models equipped with a 09G Automatic Transmission.
At 40,000 miles and every 40,000 miles after-All 09G automatic transmissions: Change transmission fluid. No filter replacement needed."
Well, I'll change the filter too, thank you very much (if there is one). And 10K oil changes? No, I don't think so-5k for me. I'm not waiting around for the next OM supplement!

They must have had some long term problems to change their policy. Now if we can get Mini to offer such a service!

 

[fishbone]

Thanks guys! It looks like the issue with the Mini has been greatly simplified by the fact that their multivehicle synthetic ATF is also approved for JWS-3309
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Other_Products/Mobil_1_Synthetic_ATF.aspx
I called the local service center for a price quote, I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with either the synthetic or conventional 3309 and call it a day.
I was aware about the possible compatibility with Toyota Type-IV but still unsure. Our local Mini dealer actually wants upward of $300 for a flush, so anything below that I will consider it a bonus.

clutchless: yeah, the MIni tranny has a nice sticker on it saying lifetime fluid. "Lifetime" is defined as warranty period. Don't you find it odd that these lifetime fluid claims came about right around when the German imports were being dinged by JD Power about the high cost of ownership? They then revised their service intervals AND offered free service for whatever number of years. They are now going back to more reasonable intervals. Our Mini also calls for 15K oil change intervals. Can you take a guess wether or not I am adhering to that?

The Subaru ... given that I plan on keeping it for a long time AND it is tuned and such falls into the "severe service" category, might as well bite the bullet and go big with Amsoil. At least it won't be a waste since the tranny takes almost 11 quarts and I need 16 for the flush.

 

[hate2work]

Amsoil FTW. It's one of the three best fluids out there, and has worked flawlessly for me.

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: fishbone
I was aware about the possible compatibility with Toyota Type-IV but still unsure.
You don't understand...Toyota T-IV isn't "possibly compatible" with 3309, it is 3309. Made and bottled by Mobil.

 

[fishbone]

I reserved skepticism because it is listed separately everywhere I looked.

clutchless: I've read every single thread regarding the auto on the NAM forums, you posted good info and I appreciate it. I feel that I can tackle this myself very easily but if I can get the service center to do it (while I watch them), I'm OK with going that route. Since the tranny has no ATF cooler lines ... I am awaiting a callback from the Mobil 1 lube center. Tranny capacity is 7.4 quarts, I'd like to flush it all out in one shot.

 

[RF Overlord]

I don't blame you for being skeptical...when dealing with info from an internet forum, that's a good thing.

I have a TSB from Mazda proving what I said on my computer at work. As soon as I get there this afternoon, I'll post it.

 

[fishbone]

No worries, I believe you and think the only reason they list it separate is for people that specifically want to see it, black on white, as meeting that spec. When I called the Toyota dealer asking for price and mentioned JWS-3309, service guy insisted it was not the same thing. I paid no attention to him.

I don't know if the Mobil 1 service center will do the flush, because there are no cooler lines. We'll see. If they don't do it, I'll do it myself.

 

[fishbone]

Got a reply back from Valvoline, stated their synth is fine with JWS-3309 although their compatibility chart does not specifically state it. They do say it works with Toyota Type-IV.
Mobil 1 shop called back, $170 vs $140 at Valvoline, they need to see the car in order to make sure their machine will work with it.

 

[brandini]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
I don't blame you for being skeptical...when dealing with info from an internet forum, that's a good thing.

I have a TSB from Mazda proving what I said on my computer at work. As soon as I get there this afternoon, I'll post it.

They use that fluid in the 6-speed auto in the 1st gen V6 Mazda6 so they're familiar!

 

[tig1]

I have used M1 fluids for 20 Years I guess. Even though their formula has changed it still seems to work well in my Fords. If it fits your spec you may want to give it a try.

 

[Johnny]

Here is the tech sheet on the Mobil 1 ATF. Looks like it meets all the specs the OP is looking for, for both cars.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/nausenpvlmomobil_1_synthetic_atf.pdf

 

[fishbone]

Nothing regarding Idemitsu ATF HP, but if Matic-J is on there, should work. For the Subaru, that is.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Mobil said (when I called) that they do NOT recommend their fluid for Subaru ATF-HP and have nothing in the works as far as meeting it.

Bill

 

[clutchless]

Ask the shop if there flush machine will work thru the pick up tube inside the tranny pan. I think T-Tech makes such a machine. They are not as common as cooler line machines. If it were me, I would bring my own tranny pan gasket as they will not have one and is surely a dealer only or internet item. You may want a new filter while doing this procedure. For do it yourselfers, here is a procedure for the VW 09G I found on a VW forum.

G 055 025 A2 is the fluid and it takes about 7.4 qt... 6 Spd. Automatic Transmission 09G
Special tools, testers and auxiliary items required

Filler system V.A.G 1924 ($5 oil pump)


Mount reservoir of ATF filler system V.A.G 1924 as high as possible on vehicle. (Get long enough hose to reach filler hole from bottle of ATF)


Drive vehicle onto a four column lifting platform or over an assembly pit in order for it to be absolutely horizontal.

Remove sound insulation tray

Note: The engine must not be started or towed without ATF in the transmission.

WARNING! [/align][*]When working close to the radiator, always maintain a certain distance from the fan - danger of injury! [/ul][/align][*]Fan may switch on automatically. [/ul][/align]

Draining ATF

Place drip tray under transmission.

Remove drain plug

Allow ATF to drain out.

Unscrew overflow pipe - (Allen key, size 5) and allow remaining ATF to drain away.

Replace seal on ATF drain plug.

Screw in ATF drain plug –

ATF drain plug to oil pan, M18 39 Nm

Install overflow pipe -C- (Allen key, size 5). Small oil pipe in oil pan 1 Nm

Filling with ATF

Remove filler plug (Torx socket head T55) (arrow).

Note: The filler plug seal (arrow) must always be replaced.

Attach hook of filler system V.A.G 1924 in aperture of filler plug

Top off ATF with V.A.G 1924 until ATF emerges via overflow pipe from inspection aperture.

Move selector lever to position "P".

Start engine.Continue to top off ATF with V.A.G 1924 until ATF emerges from inspection hole again.

Tighten ATF inspection plug.

With brake pedal depressed and engine running at idling speed, select all selector lever positions "P, R, N, D, S" in sequence (each position should remain selected for a minimum of 3 seconds).

Move selector lever to position "P". [/ul][/align] [/align][*]Check and top off ATF level

 

[RF Overlord]

Here's the relevant info as promised. This is from a Mazda "Parts Flash", reference # RF- 04-34. Sorry that the formatting doesn't translate well but I don't have a picture hosting account to be able to link to the .pdf directly.

"The 2005 Mazda6 with V6 engine and the 6-speed Automatic Transaxle (ATX) requires a special type of Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF).
The Aisin Warner produced 6-speed requires ATF type JWS3309 produced by Mobil and Exxon.
This new fluid is NOT compatible with any current fluids offered by Mazda such as Dexron II/III, Mercon or Mercon 5. Any mixing of JWS3309 fluid with Dexron II/III, Mercon or Mercon 5 will cause internal ATX damage and/or shifting concerns, even if just topping off the ATF during PDI.
At this time, JWS3309 ATF is not available through Mazda, but can be purchased from the following sources using their fluid part numbers listed below:

MFG. Part Number
Ford XT-8QAW
Volvo Volvo 1161540
Toyota T-IV
Mobil JWS 3309
GM GM 9986195

When the new ATF is available through Mazda, you will be notified as soon as possible and a Service Bulletin will be issued."

My niece has an '06 Ford Fusion that uses this transaxle and Ford wants $9.50/qt for their version of 3309. The local Toyota dealer charges $5.25/qt. Guess which one I used?

BTW, when I did the drain & fill, I looked more closely at the dipstick and it even says "T-IV" right on it. Gotta love it!