PAO or Ester ?

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: itsalex
What is a double ester formula?


Typically it refers to a formulation which includes both a polyolester and a diester.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Redline uses Polyol esters as their base stock, Amsoil uses PAO as theirs, hence RL being considered an ester oil and Amsoil a PAO.


Although Red Line claims to use polyolesters in their formulation, I have never read a statement by Red Line that their finished product is 51% or better polyolester.

There have been finished motor oils made with polyolesters (e.g., All Proof 40 years ago or so), but as a practical matter they really don't offer any real world performance advantage in most motor vehicles.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Redline uses Polyol esters as their base stock, Amsoil uses PAO as theirs, hence RL being considered an ester oil and Amsoil a PAO.


Although Red Line claims to use polyolesters in their formulation, I have never read a statement by Red Line that their finished product is 51% or better polyolester.


Red Line plainly states that they use polyol ester as the base stock in all of their motor and gear oils, and when questioned they state they use PAO as their additive carrier. They won't get in to percentages at all.

Quote:
There have been finished motor oils made with polyolesters (e.g., All Proof 40 years ago or so)


The original ester based Mobil 1 and Amsoil oils were using diesters, IIRC. Who was blending POE based passenger car motor oils 40 years ago?

EDIT: I think I found the answer; NEO?

 

[DieselTech]

I would love some proof that Amsoil Contains Esters and what products do.


I personally would choose redline 10-40 motorcycle for the application

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: DieselTech
I would love some proof that Amsoil Contains Esters and what products do.


I've never seen any evidence of it, I've heard rumors that they use some borate esters in SSO. No idea if it's true or not.

Don't forget this Amsoil logo:

It doesn't say 100% PAO, but it does lead one to assume that the amount of esters in Amsoil must very low on a percentage basis.

Quote:
Redline 20-50 also will not cause your clutch to slip


May Dad's been running Red Line 10W-40 Motorcycle oil in his Yamaha Royal Star TD for a while now. It got rid of a trans whine he had with the factory fill and with Amsoil 10W-40 Motorcycle oil, it also took away a bright gold color (varnish?) that the Amsoil was leaving on everything, even the oil fill cap. Zero clutch slip issues. Not a slam on Amsoil, just a real world observation.

 

[DieselTech]

10-40 RL is the ticket!!

20-50 for most applications will be for harley engines that use another lubricant for the clutch such as gear lube.

 

[Zedhed]

Amsoil (except XL series) has large amount of PAO -- that is their "stock in trade." Just have to trust us on that one.

 

[Pablo]

No one knows exact percentages and posts here. At one point, maybe 6-7 years ago someone made a statement from Redline stating that indeed PAO is a decent % of Redline's composition, so I called Redline and they confirmed it. Call it a carrier - that doesn't make a whole ton of sense when other sources say PAO's make lousy additive carriers and PAO based oils must use esters or group III carriers.....

I wasn't trying to make some grand statement about having inside knowledge to formulas - but to say Amsoil doesn't have ester as part of their base stock or Redline doesn't use PAO is definitely wrong and is misleading to new folks.

 

[DieselTech]

I do believe redline has PAO of course it's not 100% poly, But I honestly dont think I have ever heard amsoil does have poly in their product....I will soon hopefully have an answere. I have asked several times and can never get a straight answere. Hopefully the right person will get me the answere this time. More importantly which products do contain it if they do

 

[d00df00d]

Who said anything about polyol esters? "Ester" is a very broad category of chemicals.

 

[Pablo]

Amsoil motor oils, gear oils, ATF, etc contain a variety of esters. I don't see why that is such a huge surprise or deal.

 

[DieselTech]

I guess for me it just seems that everytime the subject of redline is brought up, there is always an Amsoil dealer or whatever waiting in the background to try to prove they are just as good. Then it turns into the same arguement everytime. It ends the same way everytime and all it does is muck up the thread. If it does have esters in it then as a dealer you should know what the product is 100%. I would expect them to tell me but in the past 9 years they seem to not really wanna say....kinda tells me something.As a manufature rep they should all be armed with technical info and be ready to answere those questions. The only tool amsoil gives is 25000 mile OCI ( NOT ) and how they save you money. If you go to any auto forum, truck forum, motorcycle forum, flying saucer forum...... it's always the same thing over and over again. Just gets kinda old watching the fight and dealers trying to prove themselves. It's like going to court with a bum lawyer

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: DieselTech
I guess for me it just seems that everytime the subject of redline is brought up, there is always an Amsoil dealer or whatever waiting in the background to try to prove they are just as good. Then it turns into the same arguement everytime. It ends the same way everytime and all it does is muck up the thread. If it does have esters in it then as a dealer you should know what the product is 100%. I would expect them to tell me but in the past 9 years they seem to not really wanna say....kinda tells me something.As a manufature rep they should all be armed with technical info and be ready to answere those questions. The only tool amsoil gives is 25000 mile OCI ( NOT ) and how they save you money. If you go to any auto forum, truck forum, motorcycle forum, flying saucer forum...... it's always the same thing over and over again. Just gets kinda old watching the fight and dealers trying to prove themselves. It's like going to court with a bum lawyer


Not sure what your point is, but the OP asked about Amsoil. No arguing from me or the other posters.

 

[itsalex]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Who said anything about polyol esters? "Ester" is a very broad category of chemicals.


Redline is formulated from "polyol esters" is says that right on the bottle.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Call it a carrier - that doesn't make a whole ton of sense when other sources say PAO's make lousy additive carriers and PAO based oils must use esters or group III carriers.....


Maybe the ester base stocks allow the additives to solubilize even if they are carried by PAO? Whatever Red Line is doing it works, because this is the only oil I've used yet that doesn't have visible sediment/additive fallout on the bottom of empty bottles, and the bottles are white to boot. I also would imagine PAO would need something to help with solubility.

 

[Zedhed]

Originally Posted By: DieselTech
I guess for me it just seems that everytime the subject of redline is brought up, there is always an Amsoil dealer or whatever waiting in the background to try to prove they are just as good.


Amsoil is just as good. Reline is a very high quality oil, but it's not the only one. Amsoil has been proven over a very long period of time to be one of best oils on the market -- now if they would just do something about their goofy marketing strategy......

There is no reason to argue about this --

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: itsalex
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Who said anything about polyol esters? "Ester" is a very broad category of chemicals.


Redline is formulated from "polyol esters" is says that right on the bottle.

...but no one claimed Amsoil uses them, which is what we were talking about.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Red Line plainly states that they use polyol ester as the base stock in all of their motor and gear oils, and when questioned they state they use PAO as their additive carrier. They won't get in to percentages at all.


They use phrases such as "fully-synthetic ester formula" and "contain PE Polyol Ester base stocks".

Okay. A PAO based motor oil with 20% diester or polyolester is a "fully-synthetic ester formula". A PAO based motor oil with 20% polyolester "contain PE Polyol Ester base stocks".

I have taken their material to indicate they use a lot of polyolester, but it's not clear that's the base stock.

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
The original ester based Mobil 1 and Amsoil oils were using diesters, IIRC. Who was blending POE based passenger car motor oils 40 years ago?


The original Mobil 1 was a 5W-20 PAO based formula.

The original Amsoil was a 10W-40 diester based formula put together by what was then Emery Industries.

Polyolesters as a motor oil present a couple of problems. The first is seal compatibility. The second is cost.

It turns out that you can add a polyolester to a PAO or Group III base and get most of the benefits with better seal compatibility and lower cost.

 

[DieselTech]

So it contiually seems Amsoil is not " Privy " to letting dealers know if there is any kind of ester what so ever in their products. Exactly why my dealership wont be renewed in may. They want all day long but wont give you the tools needed.

 

[FLHRGator]

I think DieselTech's point is that instead of answering the OP's question about Amsoil with data about Amsoil you compared the Redline formulation (which none of us know) with the Amsoil formulation (which either you don't know exactly or do know and won't tell us) and then tied them together with the word "probably" and all of a sudden RL and Amsoil contain almost the same amount of esters. It just smacks of marketing, not answering the OP's question.

I'm not criticizing you. Just maybe trying to see if I get DT's point.