VI in synthetic heavy duty oil, Rotella T Syn 5-40

[prs]

Relative to motorcycles, but that is not really at the crux of my question; a friend recommends against using 5-4- Shell Rotella T Syn in motorcycles (we have GL1800 Honda cycles) because the base stock is 5 weight and the oil will somehow be too thin. I think his case may hald a little water with conventional oils that rely upon VI to extend viscosity range upward, but I was also thinking that this particular oil is not formulated with reliance upon VI. I will be reading through the archives here as this is my first post. But can any of you shed some definitive light upon this subject?

prs

 

[ARCOgraphite]

You mean Vii. You should use bike oil in a bike that passes Japanses valve train wear spec. I would imagine the honda is easy on the oil though as it is water cooled correct? I might also assume it doesnt have a shared sump with the transmission or a wet clutch. But I dont know this bike so I am assuming too much

Generally a 5w-40 would have lots of VII and Im sure this oil does too, but given your intended use it would be untaxed in your mild application. Thinking yould looses some power with this oil, but I have not used it personally and I dont know how it acts in high rpm operation (most diesel are running under 2000 rpm).

 

[AuthorEditor]

The Rotella 5W-40 has been a very popular motorcycle oil for years, and the new T6 version is certified JASO-MA, which means it has been tested OK for motorcycle wet clutches. I've been using the old formula for three years in my Kawasaki 500 with good results, as have many others. I don't know what the specific requirements are for your GL 1800, but if 5W-40 meets your needs the Rotella synthetic is a good choice.

 

[d00df00d]

to BITOG!


First, a quick tidbit about terminology:

VI = Viscosity Index. The higher this is, the less an oil's viscosity changes with temperature; e.g. a 0w-40 generally will have a higher VI than a 10w-30.

VII = Viscosity Index Improver, i.e. something you add in to increase the VI. I think this is the term you were looking for when you said VI.


Here's a post with some good info on VIIs and their effect on oil: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...571#Post1850571

Another problem with some VIIs is that they can break down, which causes the oil to thin out and might leave deposits. However, some VIIs are very shear-stable and do not have that problem.


Just about any 5w-40 will need some VIIs. However, this shouldn't prevent you from buying a 5w-40 unless your engine is VERY hard on its oil.

 

[jstutz]

Current 5w40s have very good viscosity retention for the most part which is the concern your buddy is talking about i think. In the past when you had a very large spread in numbers like 10w40 or something, the viscosity retention was pretty poor meaning as the oil was used the sheered to a 30 weight oil or sometimes worse. Modern Vii are very good and are pretty sheer resistant. You are correct that that the basestock, Vii, and additive pkg tell most of the story, you cant just say oh its 10w40 so it will sheer. The T6 rotalla is rated JASO DH2, MA for motorcycles. I seem to remember the honda gold wings have issues with the clutch if an oil was heavily friction modified, which would not have been JASO MA rated. It is very common for folks to run rotalla 5w40 in motorcycles and ATVs.

 

[bepperb]

I wouldn't be too worried about Rotella 5-40 falling out of grade, it's an excellent motorcycle oil and very commonly used.

Of course, the conventional 15-40 would solve your concern as well.

 

[boraticus]

The GL1800 is a very mildly tuned engine. It basically the same general design as the Valkyrie engine (which I own) however, the Valkyrie engine is more highly tuned and produces more specific horsepower. The biggest mechanical difference other than six carbs on the Valkyrie vs. EFI, is the GL1800 has hydraulic lifters and the Valkyrie engine's are solid which is more demanding of the oil. Accordingly, whatever works in a Valkyrie will work in a GL1800. My manual recommends 8000 mile oil change intervals with conventional oil. A very long interval indeed particularly for non-synthetic oil. I, however do 5000 mile OCIs using conventional Shell Rotella T 15W40. So, unless you're planning on doing 20K mile OCIs, why would you want to use synthetic oil?

My personal feelings are that more frequent oil changes are healthier for the engine because impurities and acids that could build up in the oil over time, are removed more frequently. I don't run synthetic oil in anything but my snow thrower. It's needless expense unless you're in a situation where you will not be able to change your oil as per your manual's instructions. I can't think of any place in the world where you wouldn't have fresh HDEO available withing an 8000 mile range!

Go with any quality 15W40 HDEO and rest easy.

 

[Zedhed]

+1 to RTS 5w-40 or Rotella T 15w-40 Just use extended OCIs with RTS.

 

[RonH]

Goldwing still uses shim valve lash adjust, not hydraulic, not that it matters and shares the sump with the engine and has a wet clutch just for the record. For 20 some years now 15w40 was the accepted oil for a diesel engine and 5w40 was it's synthetic replacement. No such thing as a 15w40 synthetic so for diesels for all intents and purposes,anyone wanting synthetic ran 5w40. Yes I know Redline, Amsoil and others make a 15w40 synthetic. Guys for years have run 5w40 synthetic or 15w40 dino in all kinds of engines whether a diesel or motorcycle without problem. Just because Fred want to run 15w50 where 10w30 is spec does not make it gospel. I'd be more leary of Freds choice as he's running near double the recommended viscosity at normal engine temps.

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: prs
Relative to motorcycles, but that is not really at the crux of my question; a friend recommends against using 5-4- Shell Rotella T Syn in motorcycles (we have GL1800 Honda cycles) because the base stock is 5 weight and the oil will somehow be too thin. I think his case may hald a little water with conventional oils that rely upon VI to extend viscosity range upward, but I was also thinking that this particular oil is not formulated with reliance upon VI. I will be reading through the archives here as this is my first post. But can any of you shed some definitive light upon this subject?

prs


Your friend is not correct in his belief that it is a 5cSt base with a bunch of VII to thicken it. Shell XHVI base oil is made from catalytically converted slack wax, which results in a pure, consistent molecular structure. This gives the oil a naturally high viscosity index, which allows it to flow better when cold. It has also been recently reformulated, and it does not shear as much as it used to.

 

[prs]

Now dgnabbit, Ron; you shouldna gone and spilt da beans on who was cancerned about 5-40 Rotella. Yes the GL1800 is a wet clutch, shim in bucket lifter, tranny shared set-up. The Honda specified oil on mine is 10-40 and not 10-30; but that is becasue Honda changed their mind (prolly fleet average advantage or such). I've used Rotella and Delvac-Mobil One 4-40 in it for 80,000 miles so far and I, myself, am sure of such oil's suitability. I was just wanting to understand IF "Vii" is used extensively in Rotell T6 SYN or if the molecules were somehow "engineered" to do the trick. I also use Rotella T Syn in my Toyota and it has not stopped yet ;-) and I use it in my old diesel JD farm tractor. Thnaks for your help.

prs

 

[prs]

Now dgnabbit, Ron; you shouldna gone and spilt da beans on who was cancerned about 5-40 Rotella. Yes the GL1800 is a wet clutch, shim in bucket lifter, tranny shared set-up. The Honda specified oil on mine is 10-40 and not 10-30; but that is becasue Honda changed their mind (prolly fleet average advantage or such). I've used Rotella and Delvac-Mobil One 4-40 in it for 80,000 miles so far and I, myself, am sure of such oil's suitability. I was just wanting to understand IF "Vii" is used extensively in Rotell T6 SYN or if the molecules were somehow "engineered" to do the trick. I also use Rotella T Syn in my Toyota and it has not stopped yet ;-) and I use it in my old diesel JD farm tractor. Thnaks for your help.

prs

 

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: RonH
Goldwing still uses shim valve lash adjust, not hydraulic, not that it matters and shares the sump with the engine and has a wet clutch just for the record.


Well according to this site, the Goldwing engine has been using hydraulic valve adjusters since 1984. I'm not aware of too many SOHC engines that use shims and buckets for valve adjustment. See quote below:

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/goldwinghistory.htm

"The GL1200 arrived for the 1984 model year and continued the trend set by it's predecessor. Competition from Yamaha's Venture (which many motorcycle magazines compared to the Goldwing) no doubt hastened the development of the successor to the GL1100 and the GL1200 was Honda's answer. There was the unfaired Standard, the dressed Interstate and the top of the range Aspencade, which had the Type 3 audio system. New, stiffer frame with major improvements, bigger and more responsive 1182cc version of the flat-four engine with bags more torque and hydraulic valve adjusters,"

 

[Ken2]

10W-40 conventional oil is a very poor spec. It requires way too high a level of the polymer viscosity index improvers. 15W-40 is a much better spec for conventional oil. Synthetic base oil has a superior viscosity index, so 5W-40 results in a very reliable, very robust oil. There are top quality viscosity index improvers which resist shearing for many thousands of miles, but these cost more than the cheap versions that shear easily.

Viscosity index is a relative measure of the change in the oil's viscosity from 40°C to 100°C. The higher the viscosity index number, the less the viscosity changes between cold & warm & hot. The viscosity index improvers are plastic bits that curl when warm to act like thicker oil (or do they curl when cold and straighten when warm?), anyway, if the oil doesn't have too high a content of VIIS and if the VIIs are top quality, the oil can be excellent.

As well said above, there are hundreds of thousands of miles of good results using diesel engine oils in just about every type of motorcycle.

 

[RonH]

The 1200 did have hydraulic lifters, but not the 1800. They have shims. Sixty-five different shim thicknesses are available
in increments of 0.025 mm (from 1.200 mm
to 2.800 mm). 32,000 mile valve clearance intervals on the 1800.

 

[ddrumman2004]

This is true. The 91 Goldwing 1500 I used to own had hydraulic lifters and I used Rotella 15-40 in that bike.

 

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: RonH
The 1200 did have hydraulic lifters, but not the 1800. They have shims. Sixty-five different shim thicknesses are available
in increments of 0.025 mm (from 1.200 mm
to 2.800 mm). 32,000 mile valve clearance intervals on the 1800.


Thanks for the correction.

Changing t shim/bucket valve adjustment has to be one bold step backward for the Goldwing engine. Even with the long adjustment interval, shims and bucket adjustment is a much more complicated and expensive procedure. I've never heard of a SOHC engine using shims and buckets before. Usually it's screw and lock nut adjusters which are much simpler to use.

I try to avoid engines with shim and bucket adjustment. Unfortunately, my KLR650 is DOHC and it has them. The good news is that it's only one cylinder. Imagine the price to get a six adjusted?

What H was Honda thinking?

 

[RonH]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
[

I try to avoid engines with shim and bucket adjustment. Unfortunately, my KLR650 is DOHC and it has them. The good news is that it's only one cylinder. Imagine the price to get a six adjusted?

What H was Honda thinking?


I agree, but from what I've read, the 32,000 interval is for a check and they won't need adjusted, so most guys say 50-60k miles at least before any need adjusted, then it may be only one, probably zero. Steve Short, one of the Iron Butt rally heros of mine reported 280,000 miles on a 2005 with no shim swaps. So I guess shim is OK if it never needs fooling with. I might also add to keep with the original subject, Steve ran Rotella synthetic 5w40 for all or the vast majority of these miles and had no engine explosions.

 

[bigbird_1]

Originally Posted By: RonH

I agree, but from what I've read, the 32,000 interval is for a check and they won't need adjusted, so most guys say 50-60k miles at least before any need adjusted, then it may be only one, probably zero.


The cost will be almost the same, whether it's one shim or all 24 of them. The clearances still have to be measured with a feeler gauge, the engine manually rotated over for each shim measurement, and the cam still has to come out to change just one shim.
That being said, shim changing is rarely needed unless improper oils or intervals are used. Even hard driving has little effect on shim adjustment. I have a friend with a 10 year old VMax that he drives the you-know-what out of. He's never needed or had a shim adjustment with over 100k miles on his bike.

 

[boraticus]

When I brought my KLR in for it's 1000 mile valve clearance check, it needed three shims changed. I've put another 18000 on it since then and haven't bothered to even have it checked. The bike is still running like the day I bought it so, I'm not particularly worried about the valve lash.

Normally, I do almost all of my own work. However, when you start pulling the motorcycle apart just to get at the engine then removing timing chain and cams, and the need for various sized shims to choose from, I'd rather have a shop do it. Some work is just worth paying for.

All of my other motorcycle/atv four stroke engines are SOHC with screw and nut adjusters. A very simple procedure compared to bucket and shims.